By now, you have almost certainly heard about Senator Richard Durbin's outrageous statements on the interrogations at Guantánamo, which he compared to the Nazis, Stalin's gulag, and the genocidal Communist, Pol Pot. (If you want to know more about what he said, go to Michelle Malkin's site, which has several posts and many, many links. I have my own post on the subject, which puts it in a more general context, that you may also want to read.)
Senator Durbin is the Democratic whip, the second highest Democrat in the Senate. Given his statements, the Democrats in the Senate, if they have any decency, should remove him from that position and formally apologize to those he has insulted. If you agree with that, you can email Senator Murray here and Senator Cantwell here. (And I am sure nearly all of you know that polite letters usually get the best results, but I'll mention it anyway.)
Posted by Jim Miller at June 17, 2005 04:53 PM | Email ThisFor I suspect that Durbin is just saying what Patty M. beleives is true. After all, Patty M. belongs to the group, "For a Nuclear Free Washington".
Maria C. does not need any bad press or a closer association with the Democratic Party in the upcoming election. She knows that there is such a thing as bad press.
Posted by: Mike P on June 17, 2005 05:19 PMSenator Cantwell does manage to send unsolicited e-mail updates on unrelated issues however, something I expect will increase as her re-election bid draws near.
Posted by: Margaret on June 17, 2005 05:26 PMJust to refresh your memory both stood up beaming with Christine Gregoire after she absconded with the third count in the Gubernatorial race. If they don't care about the sentiments of their own constituents on something as important as the legitimacy of a Washington state election, what makes you think they're going to care about what Dick Durbin of Illinois has to say?
A better bet might be writing to any corporations whose PACs gave money to either the DNC, Democratic Senatorial Committee or Dick Durbin and tell them you're going to boycott their products for being sponsors of un-American activities.
Posted by: Jim on June 17, 2005 05:29 PMThose who suffer when these clowns shoot off their mouths are the soldiers in the field.
On one hand, treasonous scum like Durbin likens Gitmo to concentration camps and the guards to Nazi’s. Idiots like Durbin, who deserve to lose their seats in elective office, go beyond the pail by providing direct aid and comfort to the enemies of our Nation.
The terrorist scum have a new ally in Durbin and the moveon.org types, who do not care what happens to our soldiers in the field. When allegedly responsible elected officials such as Durbin, Kennedy and Pelosi let their battleship mouths override their rowboat asses, they provide our enemies with absolutely invaluable support.
And they do it for one reason and one reason only: to weaken President Bush.
These irresponsible traitors are directly costing American blood to be shed and are doing FAR more to rally support for the insurgency then ANYTHING done in or at Gitmo under any circumstance.
So, when the Zarqawi types rail against America for what we’ve allegedly done at Gitmo (does anyone really give a rat’s patootie what happens to the quran in Gitmo? Saudi customs types shred THOUSANDS of bibles every month… we don’t riot or kill people over that, do we?) they use the exact words and phrases first promulgated by the Durbins of American politics… and when American blood flows in Iraq or Afghanistan… when American lives are destroyed… when America’s sons and daughters come home in a box… part of the responsibility for that rests with the Durbins… the Kennedys… the Reids… the Deans… the Pelosis… any one of whom would cheerfully sell their daughters in sexual slavery if they were to gain a political advantage, real or perceived, out of the deal... are directly responsible.
I have no problem with opposing the President on any or every policy decision he makes. But can you even begin to imagine what would have happened to such high-ranking public officials for shooting off their mouths like this during World War 2? Such irresponsible rhetoric can accomplish nothing positive… and it goes far beyond the moment while providing direct aid and comfort to our enemies who would see us destroyed.
For all Durbin’s despicable rant accomplished… he should have written Zarqawi a check… or cashed the check Zarqawi appears to have written to him… because Durbin couldn’t have done his country any more damage if they paid him.
Anyway I'm disgusted with Turbin Durbin too. Of course Turbin Durbin has claimed his statements were "misunderstood".
Posted by: Victor on June 17, 2005 05:59 PMDoes anyone think the dems will discipline their #2 over these remarks, made on the official Senate record?
Of course they won't. They're democrats. Honor has no meaning to them.
Posted by: steve_dog on June 17, 2005 06:04 PMDear Senator Cantwell,
I am very disturbed by Senator Durbin's recent comments on the detainees at Guantanamo. I wrote my thesis on Soviet history and I find his comments appalling. I'm sure you are aware of how utterly ignorant they are. To compare a gulag in which millions were starved, beaten, and frozen to death for the simple crime of criticizing Stalin, to the conditions on Guantanomo, where detaines are well-fed, not forced to work, allowed to pray 5 times a day with their own Korans, is so ridiculous that it demeans the stature of the Senate. (Prisoners under the Soviets who smuggled in a Bible could be executed or tortured for possessing one; the US gives free Korans to these terrorists and handles them with white gloves!)
If these were merely a few silly comments, it would not be cause for me to write to you. However, I am concerned that tyrants around the world will seek cover in Sen. Durbin's comments. After all, if the US operates a "gulag" then no one can criticize Mugabe or Kim Jung Il, can they? Sen. Durbin has damaged our reputation in the world, and I think he has damaged the reputation of the Senate Democrats.
I therefore request that you repudiate your colleague's comments, and perhaps try to convince him to moderate his statements.
Thank you,
I grew up in Los Angeles, where it gets VERY HOT quite often. The first 15 years of my life my house had NO air conditioning and wasn't insulated as well as homes are now. My elementary and junior high schools were not a.c.'d either.
I remember practicing my music lessons in my sweltering hot bedroom on the hottest of summer days; the sweat literally pouring down my face as I worked. I remember wilting in the elementary classrooms with no AC. Nobody said we were in a gulag. We just thought that's the way it is. Deal with it.
I also remember freezing my bee-hind off at summer school in high school because the buildings were waaay over-air-conditioned. Nobody told us we were going to school in a gulag.
Durbin needs to go watch some films of these guys sawing people's heads off and then go put the underwear back on the heads of those prisoners.
Posted by: Michele on June 17, 2005 06:10 PMIt was that document that contained the horrible circumstances that have totally embarrassed the United States before the whole world. Durbin is absolutely right and all thinking Americans know it.
Sens. Cantwell and Murray should be standing shoulder to shoulder with Sen. Durbin and the rest of patriotic America to change how the US is acting.
We are a democracy that has always been proud to go the extra mile in our treatment of even the worst prisoners of war and war criminals. The murderous Nazis and Japanese, and even more recently the Serbs, were subject to rule of law, international trials.
Many of them were indeed convicted -- ON THE EVIDENCE -- and imprisoned, or executed.
Instead, we are indeed operating a Gulag in Guantanamo without anyone having recourse to the rule of law. Horrible & totally unAmerican.
You Bush & Rumsfeld apologists care nothing for history of our great country and democracy. You have been told the Republican Party line and that's it.
Posted by: Nelson on June 17, 2005 06:54 PMHowever even if they are not isolated events or in compliance with the Geneva conventions, they most certainly do not equate to Nazi concentration camps or Soviet gulags. Positively absurd, about what I expect from the loonie left.
Get some perspective, man.
Posted by: Jim on June 17, 2005 07:11 PMI am appalled myself when we are compared to a regime that several hundred thousand American Troops were killed trying to stamp out. I also am appalled that some will even put our country in the position to be compared to those regimes in the first place.
It's scary. No thanks, I'll take my chances with my Red Ryder BB gun! At least I'll go down with dignity, not some hack politico "negotiating" with some terrorist while our heads are severed & we gurgle, "I'm sorry madman--did we make you angry?"
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 17, 2005 07:24 PMNelson, given your sympathy with the poor wittle terrorists, I assume you'll be signing up for James Lileks's Disintegration Chamber.
You know, I was once prepared to listen to rational left-leaning criticism of the way we treat terrorists at Gitmo. I'm not anymore.
Let's do whatever the hell it takes to get the information we need before people like Nelson and Durbin succeed in getting their terrorist buddies released to kill more Americans.
Posted by: ScottM on June 17, 2005 07:50 PMNo Ac in the cell? No AC in the shower? No carpet in a cell but cement floor?
And just what temperature do you think our soldiers are working under? Are you really that mentally disordered that you consider that a torture? How about ripping off finger nails - that's a torture. Being stripped naked and made fun off is a humiliation, but not a torture.
Who in the World would think of giving prisoners gourmet meals, according to their faith? Who in the World would make an effort to make arrangments for prisoners to worship according to their faith and providing the books?
Only the USA can be that GENEROUS! You call it a torture? Would you like to spend sometime in a prison of North Korea or China? Better yet, take a vacation in a Iran's prison. Then you can talk torture.
Posted by: EW on June 17, 2005 08:01 PMI am perfectly willing to say that I would rather see a vast increase in the risk of a nuclear attack on New York City with millions of people killed than have our troops cutting off terrorists' hands, tearing out their tongues, gouging out their eyes or inflicting other permanently-disabling injury upon them (unless, of course, it's a ticking-bomb scenario, but that's not what I'm talking about).
Are the lefties willing to say that a vast increase in the risk of a nuclear attack on New York with millions of deaths is preferable to chaining terrorists to the floor and letting them lie in their own filth for 24 hours?
(I probably won't be back to post until tomorrow morning.)
Posted by: ScottM on June 17, 2005 08:27 PMJust a day before that I e-mailed my concerns that the democrats were obstructing the Energy Bill and I recieved a reply within a day.
Posted by: jaybo on June 17, 2005 08:47 PM1. Never spent one second in the military.
2. Was a college student during the Vietnam Anti-War Movement (I wonder what side he was on?).
In conclusion, he is a collaborator and a traitor.
Posted by: jaybo on June 17, 2005 08:50 PMMichele@8:13pm
Very, very good point about Sen. McCain.
Turdhead durbin's statements were fully and completely understood -- there was no misinterpretation --
Posted by: Bill on June 17, 2005 09:19 PMYou two should really do a serious study on what went on in the concetration camps, including a visit to Auschwitz. Don't forget Hilter's regime also murdered over 6 million non-Jews because they didn't fit into his world. To say Gitmo is the same is the absolute pinnacle of sheer stupidity and ignorance.
If you really are that disturbed about us being in Iraq, I suggest you go over there and make it your mission to tell the majority this was all a mistake and that they were really better off under Saddam. Other than the muderous thugs that the mainstream media profiles, you aren't going to find many who agree.
You might want to get your information from someplace other than Airhead America radio and Hollywood celebrities before you start comparing our government to the Nazis.
Posted by: Burdabee on June 17, 2005 10:20 PMWhat's the old right wing wacko comment to hysterical allegations from within? Oh yeah, "if it walks like a Nazi, quacks like a Nazi" .... it probably thinks like a Nazi. Yep, goes both ways, doesn't it.
Believe me, Gitmo is not what we need for our cultural soul right now.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 17, 2005 11:28 PMJust read your last post...... are you sure you're not a liberal troll, posing as a right wing wacko? You write such incredibly stupid posts, I almost think you're trying to discredit the conservative arguments.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 17, 2005 11:44 PMOh well, maybe all the lefties went to bed early and they'll wake up this morning bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, and ready to face up to the implications of their views.
Posted by: ScottM on June 18, 2005 05:24 AMBecause it might, you know.
I mentioned this (in seriousness) to someone while I was gathering signatures on I-912 and the only thing he could cite [repeatedly] was, "Clinton gave us a strong economy and world peace."
Posted by: Baynative on June 18, 2005 06:27 AMWorld peace?
If this happens again, just smile, back away slowly, and don't make eye contact. When you've reached a safe place, telephone the nearest mental hospital and tell them to come pick up their escapee.
Posted by: ScottM on June 18, 2005 06:44 AMIf you mean a VERY SLIGHT modicum of human treatment for murdering enemy combatants, maybe so. The Gitmo Gang are not exactly traffic ticket offenders.
And as for 'soul,' where is Africa's soul as it continues to be a haven for genocide, arm-chopping (of its own citizens) and a bed of corruption from its leaders. And 'liberal' thinkers want to give them more money? Why the pass for them while Durbin puts us in their camp?
Who's side is that Senator on? What a disgrace. The bounds for free opinions are breached at the point of sedition. Durbin, sadly, does not know the difference. Fuel for our enemies. Thanks, Dick. What a dic.
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 18, 2005 07:35 AM
Sanctimony is easy. Thinking is harder.
Posted by: ScottM on June 18, 2005 08:50 AMYou and Nelson are much like Durban in your typical cowardly sheep-like insistence on putting petty political objectives ahead of your safety and our national security.
Thanks for re-affirming the fact that you are an empty liberal (admittedly a double negative) wind bag that follows the lead of morons. You provide more confirmation that liberals will believe anything dished-up to them so long as it bears no relationship to facts or substance. You will happily sink to any level to get what you perceive to be your way. Thank god, you won't get your way, but you will continue to reveal the sort of person you are in the process.
You and Nelson are clearly sycophants to deceit and corruption. Your support for Durban and his mentality does very little to GW Bush but it indirectly hurts those American troops in harms way who protect your life. Nevertheless, the redeeming aspect of having both of you as enemies is that you are too cowardly and stupid to do anything directly destructive to most of us.
Just carp senselessly at Michelle.
Thanks for your support of Dick Durban – it defines you.
Sadly, we are getting to the point where the only thing that's going to awaken the scoialist and far left wackos is a decline in their own personal freedom and quality of life. Right now, they all get to live in the US with all the benefits of capitalism and freedom while whining about how horrible the US is, and how everything we do is an afront to the rest of the world, etc.
Put these folks under the government that they are willing into existence where their every move is watched, every dollar confiscated, etc. and their tune would change pretty quick.
Remember, for liberals, there is no absolute perspective, it's all relative. Only in Nelson, Lush and Witz's world is Guantanamo Bay = Nazi Concentration camp.
Posted by: Jeff B. on June 18, 2005 11:49 AMYou are right. The democrats won't get their way because the truth is on our side against them and the troops that are coming back from the problems know that the liberals are lying and that we are doing the right things. It isn't easy but almost nothing is except being a liberal.
Two sons of a friend of mine have completed multiple tours in Afghanistan and Iraq and they are flabergasted that the left tells the lies they do without so much as flinching. It is a pathology that the dim witted like Carbunkl zits, and his liberal ilk eat up like pudding without question.
Jeff B nailed it. Too bad some of these nitwits don't get treated to the fruits of their own fascist liberal ideology.
Thanks for the comments.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on June 18, 2005 04:17 PMOf course, trying to make history repeat itself is foolish, but that party hasn't been suffering from any foolishness shortages recently.
Posted by: ScottM on June 18, 2005 04:47 PMadmittedly, it's easy for me to blog here as a non-veteran; but I know that there are many who keep watch over me in the military without asking who I am or even if they like me; May they and their families be blessed;
I have come to appreciate them deeply in many ways, now that I have a lot to lose; my family served in WW2 (both sides) and Korea; i listened to all the grizzly stories on both sides; all I can say is "Bless this Country;" those who are ignorant of what they have do not deserve what they have;
thus the bile when we see how our (local WA) elections have been corrupted by incompetence and political dung; thus the bile when we are forced to listen to our 'esteemed' senators debase us like any 3rd world hell hole; we are more than that--I refuse to let my country be considered a hell hole by some quasi-senator who is infected with guilt and a lack of understanding our history and world history; a pox on his opinions;
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 18, 2005 09:15 PMSen Turban should be made to step down for his remarks...and then drummed outta office thereafter
Posted by: Blueknight on June 19, 2005 04:16 AMYou talk about the tradeoff between keeping detainees chained to the floor and flying jets into buildings, and yet, week after week, month after month, detainees are being released because THEY'RE NOT TERRORISTS. The number of detainees who have been release because they're not terrorists should give any THINKING person pause in terms of how they're treated. But thinking isn't the right wing way.
In case many of you didn't realize, we're the United States of America. We're the champion of Human Rights -- or at least, we used to be. What message does it send to those INNOCENT Muslims (sorry, they're out there whether you believe it or not) about how the high and mighty Americans treat their prisoners? Or are we just trying to get more and more of them to join forces with the terrorist? 'Cause what we're doing has been pretty effective at doing that.
So be honest. You're all saying that American terrorists are more humane than Islamic terrorists.
Well... that certainly does makes Dick Durban's comments way off base.
Posted by: LNL on June 19, 2005 08:20 PMAnd how many prisoners have been killed at Gitmo? How many, you pig's bastard? The answer is none. This is terrorism, you filthy, lying piece of garbage?
And at least ten of those released detainees who supposedly posed no threat returned to the fight and were recaptured. One is still at large, leading an al-Qaeda aligned terrorist faction.
How many Americans and allies have they killed after they were released, you sonofabitch? Does that make you happy?
We all know it does.
Why don't you find a dead American soldier's grave and dance on it? You know you're dying to.
Better yet, find a living American soldier and tell him to his face that he's a terrorist. Oh, never mind, just the thought's probably made you soil your pants.
Go to hell, you sack of crap.
Posted by: ScottM on June 19, 2005 08:59 PMFor every report of abuse, for every time Dick Cheney admits that on occasion some tactics are used to get information, for every complaint by British nationalists about the lack of due process, some moderate Iraqi Muslim decides America is the world's largest hypocrisy and begins supporting the insurgency. It's called "hearts and minds" and you can't win a war without it. Even Bush knows that concept, but he keeps screwing it up.
But no, you would rather slap some magnetic yellow sticker on your Hummer, high five your imaginary friend, and talk about kicking terrorist ass, the whole time our soldiers sit out there in Iraq, taking hit after hit from FORMERLY peaceful Iraqis because of the stories of how American Democracy is a joke if you're a muslim.
Do you want to see a real scumbag? Look in the mirror. Our troops thank you very much, asshole.
Posted by: LNL on June 19, 2005 09:22 PMDo you think our soldiers would blame me for terrorist attacks in Iraq? Or would they blame you and your kind for lying about the character of our country and our soldiers?
Face it, LNL: Your characterizations of America and its soldiers are lies.
Do you really think that Iraqis are becoming terrorists because they hear that some guy was made to stand in a hot room and listen to loud music until he got really, really uncomfortable? Or because he was chained to the floor for a day and crapped his pants? Are you really stupid enough to think that? "Lack of due process" for war captives? Ooooh, that's really likely to infuriate the average Iraqi trying to feed his family.
Or do they become terrorists because they hear that a United States Senator said that Guantanamo was like a Nazi camp and that the soldiers there were like Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge? Or that American citizens are calling their own country's soldiers "terrorists"? Doesn't that sound a lot more plausible?
Face it, LNL: It's not the truth that's likely to enrage an Iraqi and send him out to kill Americans. It's your lies.
Tell you what: Let's you and I get together, find a group of soldiers, buy them three of four beers (I'll pay, if you like), and then express our opinions candidly and forthrightly to them.
I'll them I think they're pretty great. You can tell them that you have publicly accused their colleagues at Gitmo of being terrorists.
I think that would be a lot of fun...for one of us.
My store of politeness has run out when it comes to garbage like you, and I am not going to debate our interrogation techniques with someone who has already proven that he is a stranger to the truth and a hater of my country. I'm not saying they're not debatable. Everything the government does is debatable, and debating coercive interrogation techniques is especially important.
I'm saying that no decent, patriotic American should debate them--or anything else--with such lying, America-hating filth as you.
We could have had a debate over interrogation techniques. Unfortunately, debating sleep deprivation, loud music, and chaining prisoners to the floor for a day--however much those things need to be debated--just isn't sexy enough to grab the attention of a population much of which remembers 9/11, and Daniel Pearl, and Nicholas Berg, and Jack Henley, and Eugene Armstrong, and Margaret Hassan, and Ken Bigley, and the contractors in Fallujah (you know, about whom your buddy Kos said "Screw 'em"), and Madrid, and Bali--not to mention the Cole, and the first WTC attack, and the Somalia debacle, and Leon Klinghoffer, and the Munich massacre, etc., etc., etc.
Hell, you still aren't coming out and saying what you're actually taking about. "Some tactics are used to get information"? Oooooh, horrors, not tactics? Even worse...some tactics.
I mean, you people must have been praying to Gaia that one of these damn Arabs would finally die already, so you could grab people's attention.
And of course, a debate wasn't really what you wanted anyway, was it? You don't think we should be fighting terrorists at all, do you? You think we should call the cops after a terrorist attack and have them go around and arrest the terrorists, and read them their rights, and let them call their lawyers. You know, pretty much the way we did it right up until September 10, 2001.
The best way to end the war? Convince the American people that it isn't worth fighting. Worked in Vietnam. Say that America is just like Hitler's Germany or Pol Pot's Cambodia. Call our soldiers "terrorists." In other words, lie. Worked in Vietnam.
You can call it "Winter Soldier."
So you told these filthy, stinking lies, and you equated my country with Nazi Germany, and you called our soldiers "terrorists."
Well, you grabbed our attention. You surely did. Mission accomplished, though not quite in the way you wanted it to be.
And now you expect to be allowed to rejoin the debate as if you'd never done these things?
Go straight to hell, rat.
Posted by: ScottM on June 19, 2005 10:14 PMMy point was sarcastic. I certainly don't consider our soldiers terrorists, but then again, I live in this country. I know better. Iraqis and muslims don't. That's the biggest point that's being lost here.
I was in the military. I know exactly what they're up against. The point which you obviously missed was that any decent American would expect to hear of abuse by some foreign power - not abuse being done and SANCTIONED by the United States. And that's exactly what all of you are doing on here -- you're sanctioning un-American values and ideals each time you shout down anyone who's pointing out something wrong. By refusing to hold anyone accountable (oh, except for liberals, of course)you're permitting our military institutions to resemble institutions of other despots as you turn a blind eye. And through my earlier sarcasm, the point was made -- as un-American as the treatment of prisoners is at Gitmo, it sure as hell isn't as bad as it is under Saddam Hussein. But that doesn't mean it's okay. It isn't.
But yet, all you and the rest of you right-wing commandos do is offer up excuses for the errant behavior of our military institutions, rather than thinking something needs to be done about it.
There are no liberal lies being told. There's a lot of truth. The problem with all of you who want to label me a douchebag or similar is that YOU WON'T LISTEN TO THE TRUTH -- because it flies in the face of this fantasy you're living in.
FACT: Our soldiers have abused prisoners at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.
FACT: Not every single prisoner at Gitmo (or Abu Ghraib, for that matter)is a terrorist - or in some cases, not even an enemy combatant.
These are undisputed facts - and even Donald Rumsfeld has admitted as much. Do you consider Donald Rumsfeld a liberal?
These aren't liberal facts, they're not conservative facts. They're facts. And they're true. But in your fantasy world -- they're liberal lies because they contradict what you WANT to believe.
Well, I think our soldiers would be much better off if all of you who goosestep with the President began thinking about where Iraq is, where Afghanistan is, and why we've had to lose 1700 of our bravest, and yet no strategy for winning this g*dd*mn thing has emerged.
The problem with all of you is that when someone like Dick Durbin sees abuses and no attempt to right what is wrong, he has to resort to rhetoric to get anyone to notice. Treason? Betrayal? Only by those who want to muffle him INSTEAD of fixing Gitmo.
I'd take you up on that beer with the soldiers, because I happen to know a few, some who are over there now, and some who have returned. I'll tell you right now, that there at least as many who are as disappointed in the war leadership as they are disappointed in the mainstream media.
Anyway, I'm sure you'll come on back and bash a liberal some more. That'll really help our guys over in Iraq. Have at it.
When you're defending someone who calls a group of people Nazis, calling that same group of people "terrorists"--and accusing those who denounce the lie of "saying that American terrorists are more humane than Islamic terrorists"--certainly doesn't seem like sarcasm. I don't think any reasonable person could possibly have read your remarks as sarcasm. I still don't believe they were "sarcastic" under the usual definition of that word.
If you were a patriotic American, your first reaction would have been to condemn the filthy lies of Durbin and Amnesty. Then you say, "but," and go back on the attack. That's what a decent critic of his country would do when confronted with a vile slander of his country.
I despise Dick Durbin, and I managed to defend him against the "treason" card (which isn't even being played by anybody of consequence--like the GOP Senate Whip). Indeed, I called it "slander," because that's what it is. I didn't feel that I had to defend a false accusation to draw attention to the real problem of having a disloyal America-hater as the number two Democrat in the Senate.
And I'm not a big fan of Canada, and I hate socialized medicine, but when I saw a headline on a conservative website saying "Canada's medical gulag," I was furious, partly at the stupidity of the headline writer for using that word at this time, but also at the slander--yes, slander--of the Canadian government and people. Again, I think the problems of the Canadian system desperately need attention before some idiot introduces it down here. But drawing attention to the real problems of that system is not a sufficient excuse for defending a lie.
Now, when I can manage to forthrightly defend people and institutions I don't even like, you'd think that someone who claims to love America would at least be able to forthrightly deny that its soldiers are Nazis, and to do that first, before attacking the people who are standing up against such lies. But you didn't. You defended the accusation. You're still defending it. You are siding with Dick Durbin against those who have denounced his lies.
You've chosen sides. Live with your choice. Don't be a weasel.
This guy isn't even an American, and he clearly has concerns about our treatment of prisoners, but he managed to speak out against Amnesty's "Gulag" lie. He knows the difference between the US and the USSR. He knows it from first-hand experience, and he is not willing to put up with the lies from your side.
And if he wants to debate conditions at Guantanamo, I'll listen to him. I'm not saying I'll end up agreeing with him. I may even find his complaints ridiculous. Or I may find them persuasive. But I'll listen to them, because he knows the difference between truth and lies, between right and wrong, between good and evil.
(Incidentally, I'll bet he understands that he is not entitled as a matter of right to be taken seriously, no matter how sure he is that he is right. You should develop a similar attitude. Perhaps you would feel less justified in slandering our troops to get attention for your causes.)
If Gitmo is like Abu Ghraib, then what you're saying is that some individuals violated regulations and abused prisoners, and you know about it because the US government has been investigating the complaints and will prosecute the abusers. Because that's what happened at Abu Ghraib.
The Nazis, Soviets, and Khmer Rouge (not to mention the terrorists) were not famous for violating regulations. You know that. Even you know that.
I seem to recall a great deal of talk about Abu Ghraib, and I don't recall the "right-wing commandos" suggesting that anyone should get away with anything, though they may not have been quite as hysterical as you desired them to be. Here's Jed Babbin, for example. Bill Buckley. The editors of National Review. Ed Morrisey.
If you could not manage to gin up the same outrage over the authorized interrogation techniques at Guantanamo that you could over the unauthorized abuses at Abu Ghraib, that's your fault. Maybe you're too dumb. Or maybe you don't have a case. Maybe there's a vast difference between Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, and people know it.
Whatever the reason, it does not justify lying and slandering America and our troops.
Oh, yes, spewing such lies is more likely to get attention than simply telling the truth. But somehow it's not more likely to get the attention of an on-the-fence Iraqi who's deciding which horse to back? You can't possibly believe that.
I'll say it again: Calling our troops Nazis is a hell of a lot more likely to lead to terrorism than telling the simple truth about either Abu Ghraib or Guanatanamo. If that's really what you're upset about, your first reaction should have been to condemn Durbin.
Instead, you defend Durbin and condemn America. You want the world--including Iraqis--to see American troops as Nazis, even though you know it is not true. Again, the truth about Guantanamo sends Iraqis rushing to join the terrorists, but the false belief that we're Nazis doesn't? Give me a break.
The fact that you are still trying to justify this slander (indeed, you claimed in your last post that "There are no liberal lies being told. There's a lot of truth" [my italics]) as the only way to get attention shows that my appraisal of your character was right on.
You're a rat bastard.
And I'm through with you. You may have the last word, because no one of any decency will believe you, anyway.
Posted by: ScottM on June 20, 2005 06:24 AMI mistook you for someone with half a brain, and I'm sorry. The bottom line is, Durbin, called "foul". Maybe he used language that was offensive, a bit over the top, but all you idiots want to do is punish the messenger and call it good.
You don't give a rat's ass about fighting this war on terror with any effectiveness. And no, Dick Durbin's comments aren't going to incite anyone except the rabid, pants at the knees right wing who refuse to believe in America's fallability.
What Dick Durbin's comments do is illustrate to the rest of the world that America is aware of her problems. What has more credibility -- an America that denies any problems (despite past evidence) or an America that admits them and appears to address them?
I guess that last question will be lost on you.
You're like a bus driver who continues to drive on a flat tire, because, damnit, the damn thing's a Michelin and cost $250!
Anyone with any sort of decent upbringing was always told to learn from your mistakes, fix them and move on. Not so with you. You were probably told to deny them, deny them, deny them, and beat the crap out of anyone who dares point them out.
I've got nothing wrong with believing in America, and singing her praises at every opportunity, but when something is wrong you fix it. If people like you continue to sit on your hands, then people like Dick Durbin are going to resort to methods to try and get apathetic Americans (the worst kind) to get up off your asses and do something about it.
Tell me to go to hell, call me any sort of name you want EXCEPT "un-patriotic" That label, I'm afraid, is reserved for people like you.
Bye.
I heard on the TV talk shows where they talked about this thing. Seems that the enemy is using these words to rile up the morale in the anarchist/terrorist camps. Good going.
If they can get rid of Lott from the Leadership, then they can get rid of Durbin from the Leadership. But they won't and you can blame it on patriotism (or lack thereof). But they won't because they are Democrats who have to make the decision. Again, patriotism is called into focus.
Posted by: swatter on June 20, 2005 08:58 AM"Dear Mr. Born,
Thank you for contacting me regarding the use of torture by our military. I appreciate hearing from you on this issue and apologize for the delayed response.
As you know, the use of torture by governments in times of war and as an instrument of criminal punishment is a deplorable reality through many parts of the world. These practices must be stopped. Torture is barbaric and inhumane and has no part as an instrument of government policy for any legitimate government.
As you know, Senator Susan Collins introduced the National Intelligence Reform Act (S. 2845) on September 23, 2004. A provision within this bill restates U.S. policy that no prisoner is to receive any cruel and unusual forms of punishment, including torture. This right is granted to all civilian prisoners under the eighth amendment of the U.S. Constitution. In addition, according to the Geneva Convention, which the United States signed, prisoners of war must be humanely treated at all times. Any unlawful act that causes death or seriously endangers the health of a prisoner of war is violation of the Conventions. The prisoners must not be subject to physical mutilation, violence and intimidation. The National Intelligence Reform Act conference report passed the Senate, with my support, by an 89 to 2 vote and President Bush signed it into law on December 17, 2004.
I believe it is important to uphold basic human rights, including protections against torture. I am following these matters very closely and will continue to work to assure that these American values are upheld. I will work with my colleagues in the Senate to ensure the defense of these rights around the world.
Thank you again for contacting me to share your thoughts on this matter. Finally, you may be interested in signing up for my weekly update for Washington state residents. Every Monday, I provide a brief outline about my work in the Senate and issues of importance to Washington state. If you are interested in subscribing to this update, please visit my website at http://cantwell.senate.gov . Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future if I can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,
Maria Cantwell
United States Senator
To which I replied:
"Exactly the kind of indirect, mushy-mouthed answer I would expect. You did not even refer to my particular question, which dealt with Durbin's comments regarding the treatment of prisoners at Gitmo, who are neither “civilian prisoners” nor “prisoners of war” under the definitions given by the Geneva Convention (so S. 2845 means squat to this discussion).
I want to know what Maria Cantwell thinks about Sen. Durbin's equating of our military with the regimes of Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin. Answer this question directly, please.
I will be posting your non-answer to Sound Politics and other blogs, to demonstrate that you are simply not a serious statesperson, and are incapable of stepping a millimeter off the party line. Until I get a real answer from you, I think we can assume that you agree with Sen. Durbin’s characterization of our military personnel."
I will post any response I get.
Posted by: John Born on June 20, 2005 10:45 AMI'm really surprised at all of you. Has any single one of you even read Dick Durbin's comments, or thought about the context in which he was speaking?
Go ahead and flame me, but this is what Dick Durbin is saying... the POLICY is misguided -- NOT AMERICAN SOLDIERS.
Hold your two hands up. Put "policy" in one hand and "soldier" in the other. Do they look the same? Do they sound the same? Do they weigh the same?
Of course not. They're not the same to Durbin, either. And he's clear about that.
Before all of you continue with the "p*ss in your pants", "piece of sh*t" adolescent hyperbole, stop your ignorance for one minute, and listen to his comments again. And remember one more thing - he was reading verbatim from and FBI REPORT - he wasn't making this stuff up!
Dick Durbin is criticizing the policy of the Bush Administration and Department of Defense that sanctions the mistreatment and/or abuse of the prisoners at Gitmo.
Not once has Dick Durbin implied that our soldiers are to blame, or that they should be compared with those evil regimes. NOT ONCE. Our policy is another matter. But all of you listen to your right-poisoned spin, and get completely unhinged.
Yes, many of these are bad men, scum who would do us harm. But how are we going to be a moral example in the world if we sell our soul and allow our prisoners to be abused?
Listen or look up Dick Durbin's comments and read them verbatim. I urge you to do it before you continue to be disappointed by the lack of response to your letters to your lawmakers.
Posted by: LNL on June 20, 2005 01:33 PMTake us for granted, lady senators. You will be in for a nasty election surprise. Lead or move aside, please. These are dangerous times with terrorists around. You do not inspire security. Have you ever handled a firearm? Hmmm...
I remember Maragret Thathcer--you are no Margaret Thathcers.
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 20, 2005 07:37 PMA U.S. Senator has no place comforting the enemy by spouting equivalancies of his country and gulags. Why wasn't his opinion more respective of our country while we are fighting an enemy? That's the rub. A united front is patriotic. Cutting your own legs off in front of your enemy is not patriotic. The Japanese would never have done that in WW2 in front of our cameras.
Criticism is free, but why embolden our enemies? It's like a self-inflicted pie-in-face at a speech. Why "pie" someone when you watch them do it to themself with their own pie? Today pies. Tomorrow--who knows--dirty bombs?
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 21, 2005 11:25 AMFrom Donald E. Wildmon, Found and Chairman, American Family Association:
"Sen. Dick Durbin’s Remarks Comparing U.S. Soldiers To Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot: More than 130,000 have sent an email letter to Sen. Durbin asking that he apologize for his remarks. Thus far, he has refused to do so, saying only that he “sincerely regrets if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my true feelings.”
While Sen. Durbin refuses to apologize, our enemies are using his remarks to spread hate for America in the Middle East. As of last night, a story with the headline “U.S. senator stands by Nazi remark” was the second-most e-mailed story on the Web page of Al Jazeera, a network which spreads anti-American sentiment in the Arab world.”
Posted by: cc on June 21, 2005 11:03 PMHow nice.
Dick "Head" Durbin first issued a non-apology. Why? Because he knew he had stepped in it and didn't want to lose face. What did his non-apology net him? More lost face. Not only are normal people calling for his head, but even democraps are incensed at his thoughtless remarks.
Now Dick "Head" Durbin has offered an almost apology. Same rules apply - "I'm not sorry for any of the disgusting anti-American things I've said, I'm only sorry that I didn't get away with it".
What possible benefit did Dick "Head" hope to realize from this stunt? Was there any remote possibility that anything that could conceivably come from it could be interpreted as useful or good for our country? (For you leftist mouth-breathers, the answer is NO!)
Is there any chance that our enemies could use this to their advantage? (Again pinheads, I'll jump ahead and provide you with the answer that you're too dim to comprehend: YES!)
That a person in his position would say such simple-minded crap is amazing. I must conclude that the entire Democrap party has gone insane.
Don't cry your crocodile tears for me Dickhead...
Posted by: alphabet soup on June 22, 2005 06:51 AMYou are correct about "damage done". Dick "Head" will likely get away with his remarks - no censure, no sanctions, and definitely no resignation ;'{
But he has hamstrung himself from here on out. He lost crucial support from his own people. They now view him as a liability. If you could stomach the bilge from some of the leftie websites, you would see that his "champions" are now calling on him to slit his own wrists!
Likewise, McCain has alienated himself from his base (did you hear that the Arizona Republican Assembly voted unanimously to censure Senator McCain). He is beginning to reap the dusty "rewards" of the dissention he caused.
Posted by: alphabet soup on June 22, 2005 07:41 AM