A group of Seattle public high school students are getting honors credit for creating public service announcements opposing the WASL
The students' concern — shared by their teacher, Paula Scott — is that their whole lives can hinge on one test.They're going to do exactly what they would do if even they were granted a high school diploma that didn't require them to learn the basic skills tested by the WASL -- spend the rest of their lives poor, ignorant and unemployable. Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at June 09, 2005 02:20 PM | Email This"What do you think the kids are going to do if they don't pass the WASL?" wondered Timothy Butler, 15.
But in any public expenditure of funds we as taxpayers have a right to know our money is being wisely spent. The WASL love it or hate it is really the best way we have to measure the effectiveness of schools.
We can debate for years on how to fix schools that do not perform well. But there should be no debate on the need to identify how each school is doing. Teachers and administrators may not like the WASL because they say it does not fairly represent the achievements of their school. My advice then is to come up with something that does. The public has a right to know their money is being used wisely.
Posted by: Frank on June 9, 2005 02:38 PMHey, maybe they can get KCE to score their tests...that might help!!
Posted by: Blueknight on June 9, 2005 02:44 PMWell, maybe they can enhance the score sheets by interpreting test-taker intent. If you want them to score the tests, you will end up with tests in the system that have no student attached to them, and tests entered by non-students. Ultimately they will be able to show that Washington students are the brightest students in the world.
Posted by: Eyago on June 9, 2005 03:34 PMYou can bet there are big changes in how the WASL is used for graduation requirements. For the class of 2008 (my daughter’s class), they will be required to pass all portions of the WASL. I think the best I have seen for 10th graders is only 68% passing. That’s going to create a huge log jam of students in 12th grade
I think we all agree that our children should have a certain level of proficiency in many subjects in order to graduate. The question comes in what those levels are and how we assess the children. Washington law dictates the WASL. I have heard and read of a lot of teachers and parents complaining about the WASL, but I have yet to hear of an alternative system. Unless there are ways to make up the test, I don’t know why a test in the 10th grade would become a go/no-go for graduation – if a child fails why should they go past 10th grade? The article mentioned up to five opportunities to make up certain sections of the test, I don’t know how this is implemented, but I assume these opportunities are in 11th and 12th grade. Surely schools have an interest in helping these kids pass by the fifth try.
There seems to be a disconnect between teachers and whoever commissioned and wrote the WASL. Teachers complain about “teaching to the WASL”, but if the WASL contains information the state deems necessary, why wouldn’t that information already be part of the regular curriculum? Is it because schools and teachers prefer to teach other things? I don’t know, which is why I ask. Maybe more input should come from teachers for an improvrd test. Make a commission and do it!
All teachers are college educated, some with Masters and others with PhDs. With all of these educated people available, why do we not yet have an acceptable solution to the WASL that satisfies state needs with teachers concerns balanced by what is really important – the kids? Quit complaining. Quit picketing. Quit protesting. Start working on real solutions in how to improve the education of the kids.
Parents: be active in your kids life. Help them with homework. Be active in your kids’ school. Balance your support of your child with common sense. Not all disagreements with a school require lawsuits or screaming matches.
Yes. My kid will be a sophomore and will have to pass the WASL next year in order to graduate in 2008.
Posted by: SouthernRoots on June 9, 2005 04:04 PMHis name is Dean Logan, and he serves very well as an example of the heights such a student may attain - an enviable annual salary, and no particular accountability regardless of dismal performance. Oh, it does help to have a powerful patron, but the WASL is irrelevant to one's access to such a patron.
This is how the Seattle Schools justifies giving students "honors credit for creating public service announcements opposing the WASL". In the mind of the Democratic Party, patronage always trumps performance.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on June 9, 2005 04:07 PMThere are several other ways to measure success in schools. It's already been mentioned that there a number of other tests that are used nationally. These tests all have reams of data that allow comparisons between kids in different states. That's kind of the point of having the test.
But I submit the WASL is a WEA feel-good exercise. They need some kind of test to prove they're doing their jobs, but they don't want to be painted in a negative light by taking the chance that WA state kids might not measure up to some other states'.
So why not use a local test? Yeah, that's the ticket...with nothing to compare it to. And a sliding standard that can be continually dumbed down to polish the educational turd we have in this state.
Use of an acceptable standard would have shed too much light on our schools. Improving performance is the last thing the WEA wants, keep that in mind. They want more jobs and no backtalk from parents.
Posted by: steve_dog on June 9, 2005 04:09 PMY'know, this raises a question that has been bugging me the past couple of days. One of those articles Stefan linked to (the PI, "Leading to Excellence" article), while basically slamming KCE, Logan, et. al. also threw him a bone at the end by saying "Logan has outstanding professional credentials..."
What were his outstanding professional credentials? I mean, I know the one about the complete failure to correct any problems at KCE, and actually making things worse, and all, but I'm curious about the rest.
Posted by: RookieRick on June 9, 2005 04:25 PMThe WASL would prevent a B average student from graduating! And limit their opportunities for the rest of their lives. What kind of people are we that we would tell 16 year olds that they are failures? Where would you be if your opportunities were limited by your emotional and intellectual development at sixteen?
How about a WASL endorsement on a diploma? We'll have less drop outs, less kids becoming "failures", and still reward those who achieve a particular academic standard.
Posted by: reyryn on June 9, 2005 04:34 PMThen there is "teaching to the WASL". It happens. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is hard to say, but if the test itself is not a good reflection of necessary skills, then it will be a very bad thing. And from what I've heard, it does not focus on basic skills, it focuses on a lot of abstract "creativity" material.
So we have teachers teaching to a test which doesn't have much to do with functional skills. Sounds like a good concept turned into a bad idea and into a very bad implimentation. Typical of Washington government.
Posted by: Dogbert on June 9, 2005 04:35 PMI told you - it's about putting lipstick on a pig. Not about teaching kids.
The WASL is meant to show us saps who care about the educational system that the powers that be are Doing Something. Given the attention spans of the average voter/taxpayer, it doesn't really matter what, just so long as they have the perception that the schools are Doing Something.
And if that Doing Something means hiring a few WEA-approved "experts", and hiring more teachers and administrators to implement this new system, all the better.
Washington education is about dollars, not kids.
Posted by: steve_dog on June 9, 2005 04:38 PM*checking...*, Uh, man seems to be the right one.
Posted by: Eyago Da Man on June 9, 2005 05:07 PMIf the WASL is what it is intended to be, the people who get the endorsement will tend to benefit from it. If it's not, it won't matter to anyone anyway.
In the meantime, people who want to believe that receiving a diploma means they have a high school education will have what they want -- and perhaps will stop complaining. (If they want, we can even make the endorsements on those other diplomas a closely-held secret at the graduation ceremony, so their feelings won't get hurt.)
I've seen some of the questions on the WASL. They are dumbed down to the least common denominator as you would expect from a the liberal establishment that creates these tests.
Posted by: Jeff B. on June 9, 2005 05:32 PMSharkansky, I applaud your efforts on the part of election reform, the Rossi campaign, and most of the other issues you address. However, if you have chosen to support the WASL, then it is obvious to me that you have not done your homework on this subject.
This ought to be one of the big frickin' soap boxes of parents across Washington State. The apathy and ignorance of people amazes me! Ask for accountability at the classroom level. Flunk kids who do not pass in-class exams on the material they are supposed to be learning in class. Period. No big, expensive farce of a test needed!
Shark: Shalimar has said that she has attempted to engage you in discussion about the WASL. Apparently your child (children?)has(have)not yet had the pleasure of encountering it. Here are a few of the concerns I have about this test (and this is a small subset of my collection of concerns!):
1) Subjective nature of the test: This test consists predominantly of written-response type questions. This favors the verbally oriented (pardon my sexism, but I'm going to say that it favors girls). The essay nature of this test also predisposes it to subjective grading. In fact, one test scorer (who worked for NCS Pearson and graded these tests)says the grading rubric changed daily as problems arose in interpreting student responses. In other words, two students answering identically on different days or being graded by different scorers could (and did) receive substantially different marks.
2) The questions are worded in a leading way (one of the pitfalls they caution against in preparing surveys is biased questioning; you know this!). Some of the sample questions I have seen indicate that at least some of the people involved in formulating the science questions are blatant leftist environmentalists. It's too time and space consuming to find and paste the sample questions here, but you won't have to search extensively to find many offensive examples! For my part, I am not sure which I find more upsetting: the fact that these questions are so poorly constructed, or the notion that the questions reflect what is considered to be "science" teaching in our schools! I know this is not the science instruction I want for my kids! You are a "math-and-science" person. I'm telling you now, you are going to be appalled to a degree you would not have thought possible!
3) Time and expense of administering test: This test is very costly to administer (the estimate I have seen is around $75.00/student),especially when you consider that some students are allowed to take it multiple times until they achieve acceptable scores. The test preparation takes a ridiculous amount of time (literally months), and then, the testing period itself lasts for two weeks. When our high school sophomore was taking the WASL this year, all of the remaining students (in a school of 1,600+ students)were required to stay off the school premises for the first two hours of each school day during this two-week ordeal. An additional cost: I know of at least one math teacher who was charged with making sure that all students had access to WASL-approved calculators.
There are additional issues, but, frankly, I'm kind of sick of thinking about it! People, research and educate yourselves on the background of this test, its architects, its content, and its intent. Then come back here and lets all meet again! Something needs to be done, and someone needs to do it. It might as well be us! --one exasperated parent
Posted by: PeggyU on June 9, 2005 07:18 PMThe Iowa test is cheaper for schools to administer than the WASL and it measures against people from all over the country. (Yes, I agree this is probably a down-side for fearful WEA members.)
I would like to know who dreamed up this test. I picture Dogbert (the Scott Adams character, not our own poster Dogbert) as Consultant to Terry Bergeson, selling her this "great" new test that will make her look good, pointy hair and all.
Posted by: Shannon K on June 9, 2005 07:20 PMI've seen some of the math questions and they _are_ appalling! They were written by non-math people for non-math people, and therefore have a definite verbal bias.
My kids are all good at math, my youngest remarkably so. He has an intuitive grasp of math concepts and can compute well. However, make him WRITE an explanation for a problem and he would be hampered. Also, I believe (tell me if I'm wrong) that the scoring is such that someone who marks the wrong answer but has a good "explanation" would score bettr than someone who marked the correct answer but does not write a good explanation. The math test therefore does not measure math ability; it measures verbal ability. It would be like making someone perform a lot of computation in an essay.
Posted by: Shannon K on June 9, 2005 07:28 PMWe taxpayers pay for the writing of it, the grading of it, the hand-wringing over it, and the kids pay for it in de-focused education. I ran some numbers a few years ago that showed that while the test scores for WASLs are going UP UP UP (cheerleading headlines produced by this phenomena) year-to-year, the test scores from the ITBS tests (taken one year prior to the WASLs) are going DOWN DOWN DOWN. The WASL is a local test; the ITBS nationally normed.
Have you ever gone to the Department of Public Instruction's website, and *read* the "EALRs" (one dare not call them "goals") that the test is supposed to measure? They are incomprehensible. Any business person who wrote goals like that for a business would be fired on the spot. Then ask if they are things you really thought your kid should be learning in school.
IN addition, I have seen kid after kid come home with *reams* of homework to prepare for the WASL--30 *extra* pages of math a *week* for one fourth grader I know--to prepare for the test. What the heck are they doing the rest of the time?
Parents can exempt their kids from taking the WASLs but it really ticks off the schools because it is recorded against them as a failing grade. THIS IS NOT *MY* PROBLEM. You have to dig and dig to find this information on the Department's website, but here is the location, unless they have moved it (again): http://www.k12.wa.us/Assessment/pubdocs/ProvisionsforstudentrefusingWASL.doc.
Finally, the WASL folks retain the right to tell State "authorities" if they see something alarming in a student's test answer...so your kid could get a "report" filed somewhere about his psychological weirdness--but the *parents* would never be told. Ummm, anyone for the rights of parents to bring up their own children? Privacy for a minor?
It's a jobs program, it's setting WA apart from the rest of the US, it is not measuring academic achievement, and it is a big pressure on families and children--for WHAT?
As I said, WASL is like a Dogbert Consultant invention. And what are Dogbert's goals in the strip? Scamming people out of their money and ruling the world. (or at least a part of the world)
Posted by: Shannon K on June 9, 2005 08:00 PMFor kids - from THAT school - to organize anything other than a drug deal and gang war....is a wonderful thing!
My hat's off to them! They are correct about the WASL. It makes no sense to get great grades throughout high school - then be denied graduation because of a failed WASL test! And now the school districts have stopped using the other standardized tests for comparison!
My kids are in advanced Math and Honors classes....and to think that they may not graduate from high school someday because of that obnoxious and subjective test - terrifies me!
I believe the people who formed the questions for the WASL tests were on acid! And the people who score the test are on crack!
Posted by: Deborah on June 9, 2005 08:21 PMWell, we know a B average is uniform accross the state.
And limit their opportunities for the rest of their lives. What kind of people are we that we would tell 16 year olds that they are failures?
Honest people. People who actually make their kids learn. Hopefully. Take the 29 year old who lives with his parents accross the street from me. It's to hard for him to figure out how much interest he pays on his credit cards. Someone should have told him long ago, you need to study or get left behind, now it's to late. But he's got kids and a big spoiler on his Honda. Yeah baby.
Where would you be if your opportunities were limited by your emotional and intellectual development at sixteen?
Where I am now. When I was 16 we had tracked education. You were in "-" standard or "+" classes, and the difference meant something. People in the "-" classes were all looked down on, even the otherwise popular kids. Know what? Kids in those classes were embarrassed and worked like hell to get out of them.
How can I remotely be expected to trust someone to operate a 3 ton SUV if they can't pay attention in class? If 16 is to immature to be responsible for your education, its to immature to place other people lives in their hands.
How about a WASL endorsement on a diploma?
How about we put a vending machine up at the school, you get one point each morning. When you hit 2,000 points you can pickup your diploma.
We'll have less drop outs, less kids becoming "failures", and still reward those who achieve a particular academic standard.
I'm less worried about kids being "failures" and more worred about kids becoming failures. Actual failures. Failing in life because the were allowed to slack their way through school.
And yes, I have no sympath for people who don't take the shot they've got at free education, or the parents who don't push them.
Oh, and to be completly honest, I never attended a day of public schools in my life. All Catholic ruler wielding nuns, finished high-shcool in '94. And not in WA state, but about 2k miles east.
Posted by: Ryan on June 9, 2005 08:38 PMThe Iowa's at least have comparability. Like the CPA exam, it's consistent in all states for all practical purposes. Pass or fail--it's simple. Surplus or deficit--just like budgets. A, B, C, D grades need to mean something again.
State rights & test differences aside, I think the REAL problem in schools is not emphasizing basic reading, math and science and HOLDING students' (and PARENTS') feet to the fire. Throw in unions and an education breaucracy and the failure cake's ingredients are complete.
There are too many non-essential (listen up--DIVERSITY) and feel-good topics taught. Other countries (say--India, Korea) are not worrying about feel-good "inclusion" classes. They are drumming on the essentials--math and reading.
OK--don't like my opin.? then make everyone in WA take (& pass) the new CONVEyT (Mexican-produced) class courses in another language to show open-mindedness and progressive learning--after all, Mexico knows what's best for WA students. The Gov. thinks so...
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 9, 2005 11:27 PMI know in Washington State our Bar exam is one of the rare essay ones. Essay exams can measure a wider range of abilities, more then just being able to recall facts and make educated guesses. The problem is grading is much more subjective. Because they are subjective there can be manipulation of results.
The best solution would probably be to make the students pass both a test like the Iowa test and an essay test like the WASL.
Make no mistake though the WASL is in (large) part designed to measure how well a particular school is doing. There are penalties for schools that do not do well on the WASL. If a school does poorly over a period of years the state can actually come in and run the school. That is why you hear about school officials helping students cheat.
Posted by: Frank on June 9, 2005 11:42 PMHonorary Doctorates for for tying their shoes? Masters degrees for brushing their teeth every night? (fade to old classics Star Trek screen) (Bones): "...My God, Jim!..."
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 9, 2005 11:43 PM
I think the intent of NCLB is noble. However, I also think it is naively utopian. There are those people who simply are never going to get ahead, due to innate inability or personal choice. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but expectations shouldn't be outlandish either.
As if the deck weren't already stacked against achieving this ideal, opposing political interests (Democrats in positions that influence education policy (OSPI); NEA and WEA) are determined to undermine it further. So, they take what has been mandated to them, put their own twist on it and deliberately sabotage Bush's efforts at education reform. If the terms of NCLB were so onerous as to be intolerable, states could forego the funds from the Fed. I realize that this constitutes a chunk of change that schools would have to make up. I do, however, feel that schools could get by on less if they exercised better business practices.
You know all of those studies that compare the performance of our students to those in other countries? I would like to know what the per capita spending (adjusted for their income levels) is on students in those countries that surpass ours in academic performance (I suspect less, but maybe I'm wrong). I would also like to know which subjects and services they consider core, and which are "extras" provided by outside sources - or not provided at all. Finally, I would like to know if foreign schools put any meaningful effort into assuring that education is available to all children. While it's necessary to an extent to measure our educational achievement against that of other nations, we have become obsessed. The result of the obsession is over-testing which diverts resources from other aspects of education.
The WASL is supposed to be a "benchmark" test, one that identifies the actual skills a student has mastered. The ITBS compares students to each other. Both types of tests are useful. The ITBS should not have been thrown out; it is a practical instrument for comparing the relative performances of schools across the country - and it is a long-standing assessment tool. This is important because ITBS has accumulated data going back decades. Additionally, the ITBS is inexpensive and test preparation is minimally intrusive.
The WASL, on the other hand, is an unwieldy and costly nightmare. The WASL purports to be a benchmark test. It is meant to test whether students have met the EALRs (Essential Academic Learning Requirements - outlined for different grade levels by OSPI). Here some interesting questions popped into my mind (this is like opening a can of worms, isn't it?). First, are the EALRs specific enough, or are they too vaguely worded (would those of you who speak educationese have a look at them and interpret them for us lay people?). Does ambiguous wording affect consistent educational standards? Second, are the EALRs age appropriate; do the goals line up with the developmental abilities of the majority of students at a particular grade level? (I wonder, because neither my husband nor I were introduced to algebra until the 7th grade, while it has been thrown at my kids much earlier on (can't say they really took to it, either!). I don't feel that us "old folks" have suffered any adverse effects from our delayed introduction to more advanced material). Third, does the WASL sync with the EALRs? There have been many complaints that problems of similar difficulty appear on tests at both the 4th and 10th grade levels. It seems logical to me that a test should progress sequentially from easier to more difficult questions. This does not seem to be the case with the WASL.
I've got a lot of ideas on solutions to problems with setting, realizing, and economically measuring attainment of standards. Anyone else out there care to discuss and shoot holes in my thinking? It would be fun! Also, and more importantly, does anyone have ideas on how to pressure the schools to acknowledge and act on parent input?
Posted by: PeggyU on June 10, 2005 01:06 AMFor society to reject teenagers before they've even left home is bad policy. We go on & on about doing your best, building self confidence, setting goals, giving kids support so they won't abuse drugs and will stay in school. Thanks to the WASL we will tell self-confident, goal-setting, law-abiding children that they are too stupid to be successful in our society. We can't throw kids away like this.
Only academically inclined teenagers will graduate from high school. The rest will quit in the 10th grade. We will have more uneducated people and fewer college graduates. The WASL will not produce better educated people. It will produce less people with a basic education.
Posted by: reyryn on June 10, 2005 09:55 AMreal result? a stacked deck (majority) of union members/reps on school board; presto--no more strikes; (the board will ratify everything it wants); frustrated parents never knew what REALLY hit them;
student performance? oh yes--I'm sure it's now giving kids from India & Korea a run for their money! vouchers, competition and performance pay for teachers will help;...and yes, I DO come from a family of teachers, principals and professors; so not just a slam on teachers; I know of the inside workings of the system;
First of all, only 2% of that test has anything to do with PRACTICAL knowledge, and I believe that's the part where your answer doesn't count if you don't use NUMBERS, WORDS, and PICTURES and unless it is entirely contained within the MINISCULE box they give you.
The rest of it is all about 'If the logging rate in 1995 was 20 logs per day, and it increased by 2% each month until 2005, write an expository essay on the effect on the squirrel population OR write an opinion essay on how the squirrels feel and why they believe logging should be stopped' (Okay, so it's not actually a WASL problem, but you get the picture)
I think there should be stuff like helpful citizen's dead body thing where you, as a test taker, have to evaluate the situation, make a decision based on the knowledge you have, and explain why you made the decision you made. That's a good use for the WASL.
Maybe they should revamp the math section to something like, "If the margin of victory was 1/13th the number of illegal votes and equaled 198 (if I had the number handy I would use it, but this is school and they don't like us knowing such things ;) ), what was the number of illegal votes." Or, have problems about measuring the intrest on 730k over 5 months. Not, "If x% of the population voted for Repubs Areevil and y% (which is les than x) of the population voted for Dems Aresaints, and the population of the state is z [imagine there are numbers where I have variables], then how many votes must we make absolutely sure we count so that Dems Aresaints wins the election?"
However much the WASL may be a piece of crap, these students should not be getting CREDIT for making these announcements. But on the bright side, I could use their hijinks as a reason why I should get extra credit in history for being a Sound Politics-ite. ;)
Perhaps they are right. No tests. Result = no pride. No preperation for those nasty words they will hear in "the real world" - NO. By protesting testing they are announcing to the world that they are stupid, too dumb to learn, too lazy to work hard. Nice standards, teacher! Thanks for encouraging kids to diminish their own value. Third rate education from a third rate teacher.
Test, test, then test some more. How else can anyone expect to improve? Jeez.
Posted by: duhh on June 10, 2005 12:47 PMNope. Never called your kid stupid. Called your attempt to use the average of an arbitrary letter grade assigned by 5 teachers to attempt to show how well your kid is doing inadequate.
That's the entire point of standardized testing. You need some way to show progress against a larger set of students than those 5 teachers grade. It's also nice to be able to insulate the meter against parents who get mad when presented with evidence that their child isn't doing well. They tend to apply the "not MY child" filter and push for grade changes.
Now the WASL maybe a very poor test to achieve this goal, but your comments were that the goal is wrong, and it isn't.
For society to reject teenagers before they've even left home is bad policy.
Well, telling children the actually have to LEARN what they're taught in school isn't the same as rejection, but... What happens at age 18 when they can’t get into college or a trade school, understand basic math, or hold down a job. Then do we pull them to the side and say “Hey, you really should get an education, you’ll need one.”
We go on & on about doing your best, building self confidence, setting goals, giving kids support so they won't abuse drugs and will stay in school.
And if the kids fail in these goals, what's the response? How can anyone build self confidence when failure isn't an option? What would they be confident in? It sure wouldn't be succeeding.
Thanks to the WASL we will tell self-confident, goal-setting, law-abiding children that they are too stupid to be successful in our society.
If the WASL (or any other standard test) doesn't accurately reflect the goals its set out to measure, then it needs to be changed. The fact the ruler is broken isn't an argument that measuring is bad.
We can't throw kids away like this.
Nor can we raise a generation of kids with whatever knowledge they felt like picking up along the way. Our entire educational system is broken. Its busy trying to ensure every child is a round peg to put into the hole called college. Reality is a bit different.
Only academically inclined teenagers will graduate from high school. The rest will quit in the 10th grade. We will have more uneducated people and fewer college graduates. The WASL will not produce better educated people. It will produce less people with a basic education.
And what will happen if we just say "Everyone gets to graduate" and then let kids try and get into college? What will that produce other than a bunch of kids with meaningless diplomas and no idea how to achieve a goal?
Yes, it is somewhat irritating when "your" and "you're" are used with abandon and disregard. Lots of room for improvement, and more to the point, we all could use an occasional reminder of the importance of proper "usage". Your spelling improves when you're tested. Frequent usage develops familiarity, confidence, and skill.
No Tests vs. tests. Like the difference between trying to sharpen a knife using a wet sponge or a whetstone. From a distance it appears to be the same. Hey, just a few letters between the two. No big deal. However, up close, and in the results; very different.
Posted by: duhh on June 10, 2005 02:43 PMStarting in public/military (on base) school testing for grade placement based on age, when returning from overseas (Europe) for the 2nd grade.
The Metropolitan Achievement Test in 5th, 7th, 9th and 11th grades.
The ASVAB (Armed Forces Scholastic Vocational Abilities Test Battery) in 1981. Required when volunteering for military service.
Naval Engineering Aptitude Test in 1981. Also prior to my naval enlistment.
The Civil Service Entrance Test and Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Apperticeship Entrance Test when applying for an apprenticeship position at PSNS in 1987.
Each of these test was at least lengthy and difficult as the WASL. OK, The Naval Engineering and the Apprencticeship test were definitely harder than the published WASL. In the areas of Math, Physics (no calculator) and the sections dealing with your ability to follow verbal commands.
This does not include the qualification tests and re-qualification tests, required to perform the various jobs I have had or to work in potentially hazardous environments that I am working in.
It is not in the best interest, of the student, to not test them to their limits. For there is no other way to see if there is an area of weakness the student is covering up. And that is the purpose of any test. If you can not test them than you do not really know where that student needs help. While the situation of the "B- student" is a concern, I think that it is an isolated incident. But I do think the WASL should be used as a tool not a requirement.
Testing is good feedback, and frequent feedback can only help identify problems, so that they can be corrected. But it doesn't smell like this is what is going on here.
Posted by: Dogbert on June 10, 2005 06:29 PMPS: Dogbert, Congrats on your PE tests. I get to take my first one some time next year (mechanical).
Posted by: Mike P on June 11, 2005 08:55 AMThe difficulty of the test is not the issue. We support making tests difficult enough to screen out the unqualified. You really need to look at some of the WASL questions before you champion its cause. Personally, I think it would be great if you could offer graduation exams in high school, then use a classification system like the one used for radio engineers. Those people passing more difficult exams could get a Class I license (diploma). Break it down into a few categories. It will be a matter of pride to achieve the highest diploma available. It will also give employers some idea an applicant's level of self motivation.
Second, what passes for "knowledge" on the WASL is beyond me. If you look at the tests you mentioned, you can pretty easily identify the specific body of knowledge they are testing for. The WASL is a little more nebulous (at least the sample questions I have seen are); questions and responses can be interpreted in many different ways. I would hate to have to try to score one of these things. According to an account I read, one test scorer confessed that identical responses given to the same scorer on different days received different scores. That's too sloppy for my comfort, especially when this test will be used as a graduation criterion.
Posted by: PeggyU on June 11, 2005 10:49 AMAlso remember when you took the ASVAB, there was a section devoted specifically to "reading comprehension". This section is even more pronounced in the The Civil Service Entrance and Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Apperticeship Entrance Tests. And in these test there are sections concerning tool identification and nomenclature.
Do you know the difference and can correctly identify the following: nippers, tin snips, rivet cutters, linemans pliers, "dikes" or side cutters and wire cutters? It is the size and shape of the pliers. How many High School Seniors, taking the same test I was, do you think would know the right answers?
Add to that the applied nomenclature can be different in different parts of the country or if you have worked with these tools in a previous job. Often the nomeclature used for a tool in the trade is different than the manufacture's nomenclature.
Peggy, you are raising the same type of arguements used to try and discredit IQ tests by minority groups. They said etiquette questions like, "Where would you put the third fork in a place setting?" Were unfair to poor people, blacks in particular. This is just not true. I was raised in a USAF Enlisted household and I knew it was centered above the plate. And trust me, my mom worked a job at every place we were stationed after my youngest sister turned 5.
Posted by: Mike P on June 11, 2005 12:27 PMMy son (who avoids difficult academic work whenever possible!) will quite likely score well on this test. I would bet on it. Why? He has scored well on previous WASLs. He is socially adept, verbally gifted, and good at identifying what people want to hear. He'd make a great salesman, but I don't think he's very well-rounded academically (we're working on that). Can he reason? Yes, quite well, thanks. The WASL is easier for people who reason well (which makes it similar to an IQ test, not a knowledge test). The WASL is supposed to be a knowledge-based test, not an IQ test. Why? The school has no control over the inborn abilities of its attendees, but it does have control over the content and method of its teaching. The WASL is meant to test whether a student has picked up a specific core of knowledge from his/her exposure to the school he/she attends. However, IF you can reason and write well (to an extent, these are innate traits/abilities), and IF you are aware of the fact that at least some of the WASL questions are written by someone with a leftist agenda (which is hard for a 10th grader to miss!), and IF you then craft your responses to appeal to that mindset, THEN you will score well, whether you've picked up a solid base of knowledge or not. Oh, and it helps if you get a scorer who has had his morning coffee and is in a benevolent mood!
I've had recent experience with the AP Calculus exam (my daughter was studying for it, and she brought home examples from past tests to work on). I'm pretty sure you couldn't score well on these tests unless you understood the fundamental concepts the questions are meant to test for. No questions about the Boer Wars or cutlery here. Just calculus, sir. Derivatives and integrals, definitions and proofs. There are also some clearly written applied calculus problems. There is no necessity to look for any hidden meaning or answer in a manner contrary to your beliefs just to get a good grade.
My arguments do not lend credence to yours. I repeat: WASL = bad design. Get it? Got it? GOOD!
Posted by: PeggyU on June 12, 2005 01:10 AMFirst off, "Assumption is the mother of all f*** ups." (Under Siege 2)
But to answer you : No, No, No, Only about Star Trek and Yes, I did read/scan though it online.
Like I said previously, I am less concerned about what knowledge is required. The WASL should be like an IQ test. And its main purpose should be to show areas that most students need more help in. As for your son, The test shows that he is capable of learning and applying the knowlede he has effectively.
While I know that you would like him to be a better student, the fact is the only one holding him back is him. He will likely come to rue the way he is acting today. But that will not happen until later in life, but he can not see that now. I know that I didn't.
But I am only suppoting the WASL, bescause no other alternative that has been accepted. The only other alternative previously proposed by our State Legislature (you know them, their the one's who can force change) was to do away with testing entirely. Which I think is a very bad idea.
So, let's see, the meat of your argument is that no one has come up with a better solution. You believe that any test is better than no test at all. Is this what I'm hearing? (Hey, how about one of those "What color is your personality?" quizzes?)
Face it, you do like to argue or you wouldn't be here! Don't "assume" yourself, that those of us who have given this topic a lot of study haven't come up with some alternatives to the WASL. Don't also assume that most of us are in favor of no testing. I believe if you go back up and re-read the posts here, you will find that most parents favor periodic assessments.
I would like to discuss the solutions end of this further, but right now I have a daughter who needs this computer so that she can finish her work and graduate! Things will be pretty hectic for the next couple of weeks, but then I would like to discuss some more.
In the meantime, I will see if I can contact Shalimar - who is the go-to person on the WASL. She has done a lot of footwork on this and is spearheading a movement for change. She is very knowledgeable, and you will enjoy talking to her. Bye for now!
Posted by: PeggyU on June 12, 2005 01:00 PMYes, if give the choice between no test and a "bad" one; I choose the "bad" test. But, as stated previously, I did not want it as a requirement of graduation. As far as the WASL test being "left leaning", what state have you been living in the past 20 years? DUH.
Comparing an AP (Advance Placement) Calculus test to the WASL is another falacy. The calculus test is not an overall assessment of the students abilities but a subject specific one.
And to be blunt, NO. I do not argue just for the sake of arguing. I did not assume you were not involved or informed, though you did both concerning me. I can only respond to your posts as written.
Posted by: Mike P on June 12, 2005 07:50 PM