I posted Plan B back in January. Of course it was all tongue-in-cheek.
On the other hand, as we learned, if individuals acting on their own in an uncoordinated fashion implemented Plan B, it would be impossible for anybody to do anything about it. Of course, I'm only making a sardonic comment about our election laws. I am not encouraging anybody to implement Plan B
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at June 07, 2005 05:22 PM | Email ThisPhoto ID is required for many things in our society - even to get Sudafed now. The Dems didn't raise the minority, low income, grandma card when they passed the law to require ID for some cold medicines.
Posted by: Move_On? on June 7, 2005 06:45 PMWhy don't you all get over it and realize that a close election is a close election, and that ANYWHERE in the country, the conditions would be similar in elections this close. Election reform?Absolutely! Tit for tat "fraud"? Aw, grow up, will ya?
Kudos to Dino Rossi for his maturity and desire to move on. He may reach the Governor's mansion yet...and perhaps now with a wider margin in 2008 than even he thought imaginable.
Posted by: LNL on June 7, 2005 07:10 PMPS. I hear the Queen B has not got a trip planned to Europe and Asia (all taxpayer expense I am sure). I would sure like to see the total cost of this trip when it is over! But what the heck she increased taxes and her own departments expenses a massive amount to pay for her fun! I wonder if she is taking the family and her newly hired 100k+ PR guy along too!
Posted by: GS on June 7, 2005 07:29 PMI'm sure King County won't get around to changing the color of Provisional ballots until after the KC Exec. race....so I'd better have a double batch printed up!
Hell - Nicole Way proved that King County doesn't know how many absentee ballots are going out or coming in during the elections....I wonder if Kinko's can print up a few thousand? If not - I'd be satisfied with blank batch reports...(I'll just take a wild guess at the numbers like Nicole does..)
Wow! I can see the Democrats and Republicans FINALLY coming together on something! Warms my heart......
DON'T BE AN ABSENTEE VOTER!!!!
Make sure you change your voting registration IMMEDIATELY to vote at your local precinct... DO NOT MAIL in your ballot... CHANGE BACK NOW!!! or risk having your ballot lost or misplaced...
CHANGE YOUR STATUS NOW. MARK "NO" in the ONGOING ABSENTEE REQUEST
http://www.secstate.wa.gov/elections/pdf/VoterForm_20040803.pdf
Make the change and vote in your precint!!! Put your ballot in the machine yourself.... or else.......
Mr. Bridges, in his ruling, said that Washington's election system relies on the honesty policy: we assume everyone is honest and don't actually ask questions regarding citizenship, and we don't check for multiple registrations or felons who are registered.
So, there's a great statewide database of voters that Stefan worked hard to compile. I'm out of the country now, but as soon as I return to the state, I'm going to (hopefully) get a felon database and compare it to the voters in Stefan's database and start challenging felon and double voters in my home county. I would encourage us all to do the same. Why not contact other fellow citizens who care about this issue and work together to lighten the load?
It's a big job, but it's the price that, evidently, the citizens must pay (with their time) to ensure clean election rolls in our state.
Posted by: JRR on June 7, 2005 08:04 PMNothing quite like being sore winners and sore losers. No wonder people like voting for them so much.
Posted by: Marc on June 7, 2005 08:25 PMThat said, I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of pets who are dieing to vote. What other choice is there than to register them at the administration building, if in fact - they really want to vote??? If you can't get them to tell you that they voted illegally, and for whom their illegal vote was cast - than their votes will count and they will not be disenfranchiised.
Posted by: Julie on June 7, 2005 09:06 PMOh, and to the "get over it crowd" - I've never gotten over tyranny - not in the past, and certainly not now.
Posted by: YourGovernorCostsMillion$ on June 7, 2005 10:07 PMYeah, normally I'd tend to agree, but you saw where "fair and square" got us. If it isn't fixed, so it CAN be fair and square, then you have to learn to play by the local rules...
Posted by: Ken on June 7, 2005 10:34 PMA sweeter victory it will be when we can bury them legitimately.
I'm as deeply disappointed as anyone else who visits this forum. But nonetheless, I contend that it would likely haunt me forever if we won unjustly.
Of course, that doesn't mean we can't ambush them, yanno.
Mike (for Goldwater '68)
Posted by: MikeF on June 7, 2005 10:41 PMI want to agree, but (philosophical and ideological differences notwithstanding) the single biggest thing that separates *us* from *them* is ethics. We got 'em, they don't.
Posted by: MikeF on June 7, 2005 10:56 PMNo. Decision is clear. Situational ethics are for the other guys. I'll dedicate my efforts to winning by legitimate means. We can win if we dedicate our efforts to contributing, volunteering, and encouraging our like-thinking neighbors to crawl over broken glass to get to the polls. Fraud may work in close elections, but storming the polls in sufficient numbers will result in victory. You may kill my vote but there are a hundred voters behind me.
Quite honestly I'm trying to persuade my business partners to leave WA, but as long as I'm here I'll do my damnest to fight, but only by legitimate means.
Posted by: davmicro on June 7, 2005 11:11 PMCome to think of it...it would be entirely possible for any COUNTRY to manipulate our elections!
National Security.....only applies to fingernail clippers in your carry-on bag at the airport....It seems to be perfectly alright for a State in our Union to allow itself, through a purposely exposed election system, to be manipulated by any interest in the world!
Does this concern anyone?
Posted by: Deborah on June 7, 2005 11:14 PMOrganized volunteers would hopefully locate themselves at voting locations and at whereever mail in ballots are counted. Volunteers would be located at any location where certification takes place.
Armed with instructions and cell phones, any suspicion or question could be passed up a chain of command for immediate answer or resolution. A 'war room' or series of 'command centers' staffed with adequate 'expert volnteers', computers, voter data bases, RCW's, WAC's and analytical thinking types could provide answers and advice. Problem hot spots could be identified on the fly during the voting/ballot counting process.
With appropriate communication via mass media of the game plan there would be a chilling effect on illegality. My undiluted vote might even count!!!
Some preliminary preparation by volunteers could prepare data banks of registered voters, felons, dead people and whatever else groupings that would be appropriate for the command centers for quick retrieval of information.
Perhaps there could be a center in each county with several sub centers in large cities.
Sort of reminds me of the 'vigilanties' that volunteered to patrol the Mexican border to spot illegals as they crossed the border. Appears the traffic sure slowed while they were there.
With the kind of back up support described, I think I'de even be one of the volunteers.
Posted by: Curtis T. Mohr on June 7, 2005 11:19 PMHey, it's works for King County, why not the rest as well?
Posted by: DakotaRed on June 7, 2005 11:28 PMThe problem is - there are so many holes to plug up in King County with regard to potential voting fraud!
Nicole Way even stated the current computer system doesn't allow an accurate absentee ballot count! Even if we had people posted at the Post office, PSI and MBOS - there are no serious control systems in place to audit the traffic in and around the ballots stored!
And - as long as King County can print it's own blank ballots - there will be no serious accounting of them!
The only way we could truly monitor the elections in King County is to have complete access to the bowels of the election departments! This just isn't going to happen!
Sure - we can post our people at every poll site - at every accuvote machine to watch for Provisional ballot stuffers...but that wouldn't guarantee anything!
I'm not trying to discourage thought on this - I'm trying to have people consider the problems and come up with ideas....
Posted by: Deborah on June 7, 2005 11:32 PMWe cannot use their tactics. We would, in fact, be no better than them, and I refuse to become that slimy and immoral. Balme my folks, they taught me better.
I do think that we can protest in a very effective way and do it rather cheaply.
The Attorney General of this state has an email address we can all use for free.
I do believe that an email storm to that address asking for justice and specifying that our votes were disenfranchised (the government's favorite term) by the illegal votes in this election. Since they cannot identify the illegal votes, every one of us has a valid claim.
I bet that the AG also could bot HIDE the email storm if it in fact occurred.
I sent me email, how about you? And everybody else you know with a computer?
Let's make some NOISE!!!
Posted by: Elmo on June 7, 2005 11:48 PMIf anyone out there from other states are listening, please, oh please, please, PLEASE register to vote using the courthouse or the city hall as your address. If you are in a "red" state, the loss of your vote there will not affect the outcome of your local and state elections. (Of course, I would never encourage anyone to vote twice, so if you vote in KC, you should stick to just that vote).
Unfortunately, now that we have figured out the game in KC, the dem machine will probably change the rules. Perhaps they will say that only felons, illegal immigrants, and double voters, or just generally only democrats, are allowed to use a public county or city building address for registration purposes.
Posted by: BananaLand(aka Iguana) on June 7, 2005 11:57 PMPublicComment.USA-WAW@usdoj.gov
I included the following passage which I think is the main thrust of all of us.
"How can the people of our state have any faith in the election process when there is no consequence for breaking (and admittedly doing so) the very laws that are supposed to ensure integrity in the election process?"
I still think they cannot ignore us if sufficient volume is achieved. Make some NOISE!!
Posted by: Elmo on June 8, 2005 12:10 AMI do not believe breaking the law to try to outdo a criminal intent on fraud, as is being suggested, will get anywhere. Liberals are better at it than Conservatives. It would become something like wrestling a pig in the mud. Pretty soon we would figure out the pig doesn't mind, he is on home ground in the contest and is better at it than we are.
Concentrating on resolving the problem at the fundamental level in a well thought out, well armed, organized ethical manner I think would have appeal to more people. That could result in the clear election of more Rossis and fewer Christines. That would result in better, smarter legislation to dissuade attempts at fraud. All cheating will never be prevented, it can be reduced but not eliminated. I doubt it is advisable to hold out for all or nothing. We would probably end up with nothing.
Putting a plan in motion while interest is at the point where Stephen has built it, is important. That opportunity is present now. I am an old duffer. Many moons ago I seized such an opportunity in Pasco and we, all volunteers, brought about a 100% recall of the Pasco School Board. I realize that was pretty small peanuts compared to this current problem, but I smell opportunity in the air.
Posted by: Curtis T. Mohr on June 8, 2005 12:36 AMOf course, you run the risk of circling the Republican candidate and having it count as a Democratic vote by the committee, but it's a risk I'm definitely considering.
I'm also planning on copying a ballot to see if my 8 year-old (home schooled) can read the instructions and fill it out correctly. I'm just trying to see where the bar is for 5 percent of King County who couldn't do it correctly last time.
Posted by: Bubbasaurus on June 8, 2005 01:37 AMThe dream race: Rossi v. Sims
Just heard it on KVI (Wed AM) that Rossi has actually considered it, but ruled it out. If there is any chance of restoring faith in King County's election system, Rossi as executive would do it.
How could we draft him? No cross country travel, and perhaps even more power to fix things than the governer. It seems the perfect response to a corrupted election and an illegitimate governer.
Posted by: Mike on June 8, 2005 06:37 AMBut, hey, why should the 'Rats complain? If fraud works for them, it should work for 'Cans. I mean, fair's fair, right?
Posted by: Interested Observer on June 8, 2005 06:41 AMBefore this goes too far, can’t reasonable people stop this? If our Attorney General, SOS,US Attorney and King County Prosecutor will not enforce the law, we will all loose confidence in the system.
Are there no Dems or members of the liberal MSM who do not see the danger here?
There must be consequences for what King County has done.
But look for sudden new found interest by county and state election officials in registration problems if it happens in a big way.
Posted by: jaybird on June 8, 2005 07:03 AMHonor and integrity mean nothing to the Move-On crowd. Their rallying cry is "the end justifies the means".
By capturing King Co this November we can change the "culture" of the "elections community" for the good. But to do so using the tools of the left will only destroy us.
I will NOT forget what occurred in Nov 2004 and I will make sure those repsonsible are reminded of it on the first Tuesday of November for many years to come.
Now, if only the Republicans could offer better candidates!
Posted by: Deadwood on June 8, 2005 07:04 AMBridges says you have to do it. Trouble is, he said you have to use the political system to do it, the very same corrupt, dshonest political system that robbed you the last time. Ever tried to fill a bucket with a colander? You'll have about the same measure of success.
"If our Attorney General, SOS,US Attorney and King County Prosecutor will not enforce the law, we will all loose confidence in the system."
For many, that ship has already sailed. Where do you go for justice when the judicial system is corrupt? Where to you go to try to elect honest politicians when the electoral system is corrupt? Where do you go for protection when the law enforcement agencies are corrupt (won't do their jobs)? The answer is, you have nowhere to go, and are on your own. Welcome to the mid-1770s.
"Are there no Dems or members of the liberal MSM who do not see the danger here?"
It is not dangerous for them yet because their candidates keep getting "elected" and the sheeple are quiet. There were plenty of Tories who were content with the status quo until some of the patriots started shooting. I'm not advocating violence, but it is clear that when the existing system has so clearly broken down, thinking outside the box may be the only alternative.
Posted by: Interested Observer on June 8, 2005 07:30 AMI deal with everything in my life above board and honest. Sometimes however, you must acknowledge that the rules have changed. What Judge Bridges said was that the rules - as I percieved them to be true - DO NOT exist. Any illegal vote COUNTS. There is NO cap on how many would count. The only ones that DID NOT count were the ones where the people who cast the illegal vote were also allowed to testify that they wanted their vote taken away from Rossi and Bennett.
I have changed my view on the war in Iraq. If we do not have freedom here domestically, our people should not be dieing for foriegnors to achieve what we have lost.
Posted by: Julie on June 8, 2005 07:50 AMThis is an arrogant, recurring theme among the libs - "YOU, MR CITIZEN ARE STUPID, PLEASE SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP".
It's Patty Murrays stock answer to any letter - (and yes I VIVIDLY remember her actually saying it for publication back when she was first elected and Clinton was railroading us with that huge tax increase).
Think back about the letters we all wrote to our supposed legislators just during this last session and the answers that we posted: "YOU, MR CITIZEN ARE STUPID, PLEASE SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP".
Think back to the Kerry campaign: "YOU, MR CITIZEN ARE STUPID, PLEASE SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP".
Think about the recent comments of John Dean, Hillary Clinton, Jim McDermott, Robert Byrd, Harry Reid, Barbra Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, Ron Sims, Paul Berendt, even the Dem witness in our court case who laid all the blame on the voters and poll workers: "YOU, MR CITIZEN ARE STUPID, PLEASE SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP".
and of course, think back to the judiciary: "YOU, MR CITIZEN ARE STUPID, PLEASE SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP".
Posted by: Cheryl on June 8, 2005 08:19 AMThe question that was never asked: If KCE was aware that the automated system couldn't count incoming absentee ballots, why didn't they just track them the old-fashioned way, using a paper log?
Very simple process: each time someone is sent to pick up the mail, the ballots are counted and logged in on a sheet of paper. For accuracy, have a second person count again and verify the total. Both employees initial the tally. At the end, just total up the logged figures and you know how many were received....
Nowadays everyone seems to forget that there are very few (if any) tasks that can't be done without a computer. Sheesh.
Posted by: Patrick on June 8, 2005 08:26 AMAnd now I read on Orbusmax a story that Sam Reed is complaining that Rossi's election challenge has "eroded" the confidence of voters in the electoral system. How's that for a slap in the face?
Eroded confidence, eh Sam? Well, no sh*t, Sherlock. How about certifying a fraudulent, unreconciled election, what does that do for voter confidence? What does endorsing and lending credibility to an illegitimate governor do for voter confidence? I mean, here is a guy who could actually have done something real and concrete about restoring confidence in the integrity of the system by refusing to certify a patently corrupt process, yet he gives it a pass, and then complains about other "eroding the confidence" of the people in the electoral process.
Sheesh, somebody really should do something about getting that d-bag outta there.
Posted by: Interested Observer on June 8, 2005 08:28 AMThe issue I have with the initiative process as it has been used recently in this state (by both camps)is that typically people don't do their own thinking and it has been used to undermine our representative democracy. It's real easy to run an initiative that says, "Repeal the tax." Huge numbers of people will get behind that. It's a lot harder to explain in a 30-second sound bite what impact that tax repeal will have on the overall state budget and the collateral damage the repeal may do to the very people who are asked to support it. It's nearly as easy to run a campaign that says, "We want better schools." We all hope for a better life and world for our children. Huge numbers of people will get behind that. But it's really hard to explain in a 30-second sound bite that the dedication of money to that purpose may overload the state budget and, again, hurt the very people voting for the initiative in ways that weren't explained to them and that they did not anticipate.
In general, the legislature should deal with issues of spending and taxation, because the rest of us really don't have a good grasp of the broader context. That doesn't mean that any of us are stupid or that we should shut up. It just means that most of us don't take the time or have the information to figure things out for ourselves or to carefully think through the true impact of some of these initiatives. At least theoretically, our legislators are in a far better position to do that. (Whether they do or not is, of course, a subject of endless debate.)
Just as the courts should exercise restraint in interpreting laws, so should the citizens exercise restraint in the initiative process. Educate yourself, let your legislators know your opinions, pay attention to what they do (both the good and the bad), vote them out of office if you don't like the way they handle the issues. But in general, let the legislature work. It ain't pretty, admittedly, but in a state that is as equally divided as this one, with a legislature that is as balanced as this one, it's hard to make a rational case that the legislature is out of control or non-responsive -- which is when the citizens should act. There is a distincition between the legislature not acting as one would like it to on a particular issue (it wouldn't be an issue if the legislature's action on it pleased every one) and the legislature being out-of-control or non-responsive. It is that distinction that has become lost in the recent use of the initiative process.
Posted by: Northern Coho on June 8, 2005 09:33 AMLife is too short, and as long as some felon (essentially) cancelled my legal vote, it seems pretty pointless: a waste of my time, a waste of Pierce County's time and (indirectly my property taxes) to vote here in Cascadia.
Dad -- I know that you devoted 23 years of your life wearing the uniform, bled defending our rights, but, what you fought and bled for is dead.
Posted by: FlyingTigress on June 8, 2005 11:22 AMIf my kids said "Gee, I spent the grocery budget at the video arcade - you'll have to go find more money!" We'd go hungry. It's time those in charge had to deal with the stabbing pain of reality. It bites.... oh yeah, almost forgot ...there is no reality here - we have entered the Twilight Zone.
Posted by: Julie on June 8, 2005 11:57 AM
1. Go to a precinct where your name is not in the poll book.
2. Get a provisional ballot and vote it.
3. Feed the provisional directly into the accuvote machine instead of putting it into the provisional ballot box.
Is this correct? Is this how unverified provisionals got counted? It's been a long time since I voted at the polls, so I'm not familiar with the process.
It doesn't seem right to fair-minded people like me that you have to resort to cheating in order to stop the cheaters, but this seems to be precisely the kind of fantasy world that the recent election and court ruling have made. However, to be honest, it has all the appearance of a world gone mad.
Posted by: Interested Observer on June 8, 2005 12:59 PMGet a clue people:
Our Secretary of State states his office is advisory only, and has NO enforcement authority. He cannot help, he can only whine.
Washington Attorney General says he CANNOT investigate unless the Governor or County Prosecutor's office make an official request. Reality check, it would be a conflict of interest for either Queen Christine or the King County Prosecutor (weren't there some e-mails where he advised KC to not report found ballots?) to request such an investigation...so not going to happen.
Despite intense public pressure to initiate an investigation of this election, the US Attorney General for Western Washington has made it clear that he WILL NOT involve his office in this matter.
Judge Bridges has made it clear that the Courts of Washington State cannot or WILL NOT support the rights of legal citizens and voters to free and fair elections.
Olympia has a Democratic majority, they have already given us PROOF of what they will do with election reform. Remember the Governor's panel that traveled the state and held public meetings? Remember that at every single meeting, the major items submitted were re-register, picture voter ID, and proof of citizenship? Recall that based on this report, the 2005 Legislature passed an absolutely useless election reform bill that included none of the above?
King County has proven that they CAN AND WILL change the outcome of elections in Washington State. Only the naive would now believe that they will allow the passage of any ballot items not in their best interest, ie election reform. The courts have already rewarded them for lies, incompetence, and falsification of legal documents.
Any citizen Initiative would be met with stiff opposition and legal challenges. Beginning with the ballot title, and continuing in an endless and expensive quagmire. And in the end, should it pass overwhelminglyl enough to offset all the ballots KC would find in opposition, it will be greeted with still more litigation and legal challenges.
FACT: NO ONE WILL HELP OR DEFEND LEGAL WASHINGTON VOTERS, AND THERE WILL BE NO FAIR ELECTIONS.
Our State is like the little sister dressed up in her big sister's make-up, party dress, and high heels. She thinks she looks pretty and grown up, but everyone around her realizes she is juvenile, clumsy, and looks pathetic. Nationally, we now rank with Chicago for bad elections, with very little hope of change. Washington is considered so backward, that our election contest did not even rate national coverage.
This is a dark time in Washington history, but I do not see many viable options available to honest citizens. Changes require voting, and we will not get a fair one. Reality check here, THERE WIL BE NO MEANINGFUL ELECTION INVESTIGATION OR REFORM IN WASHINGTON BEFORE THE 2008 ELECTIONS.
Depressingly pessimistic outlook, but look at the facts.
My prediction...in the next election there will be a hot market for bootleg provisional ballots. (According to testamony, provisional ballots are identical to poll ballots, and a copy from any school or Kinko's copier will suffice)
Herein lies the staggering contradiction in Bridges' useless admonition and rebuke to the petitioners when he said it was up to the voters to clean up the mess. The "will" of the voters (in a society at peace) is only expressed through the electoral process. But if that same process is rigged so that no meaningful reform will ever be passed, regardless of the voting margin, how will reform ever be enacted?
It is a fundamental, fatal flaw that may spell the doom of our system. As I have noted in other posts, this is remarkably similar in many ways to the situation faced by Patriots in the mid-1770s. Back then, freedom-loving and honorable men were forced to work for justice and a fair shake within a system that was designed to deny them precisely those things. They tried, and when it didn't work, people took up arms as the last resort, and a certain brilliant man penned a document that begins, "When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands that have bound them to another...". Well, you know the rest.
Come to think of it, there might be an opportunity to export some Dems to the East Side of the state for a little Plan B action there too!
Posted by: Scott on June 8, 2005 07:30 PMYour response to Cheryl's post did nothing but validate her position.
"YOU, MR CITIZEN ARE STUPID, PLEASE SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP" comes through loud and clear
You got the idea. If large amounts of Democrats, Republicans, and others start gaming the system, then the problem will get the attention it deserves and some meaningful election reform might happen. Governments tend to wait for a crisis before acting substantively.
Posted by: PW on June 9, 2005 12:41 PM