Christine Gregoire on January 5
there is absolutely no evidence – none whatsoever – to support Republicans' suggestions of major election errors or fraud.I guess it depends on the threshold for election errors being "major" election errors or "fraud", and whether evidence exists when government officials know it exists but keep it well hidden from the public. Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at May 28, 2005 03:24 PM | Email This
Question: Were you in favor of Gore's lawsuit in 2000?
I have a funny feeling you were not.
Hypocrisy and Republican Values go hand in hand.
Either you're in favor of examining every fact in the matter in 2000 and in 2004, or you're yet another third rate hack that wishes they were employed by the Republicans.
Which is it, 'Shark' ?
Posted by: Dave D on May 28, 2005 03:37 PMNot that I think that Florida 2000 and Washington 2004 are entirely similar or that Gore was even asking for a revote in Florida. How about you, Dave, did/do you support similar remedies for both elections, or are you just hurling unfounded accusations and insults against people you disagree with?
Posted by: Stefan Sharkansky on May 28, 2005 03:46 PMWhats the point of the scattergram? Why add votes to certain precincts and remove them from others? They could add votes to any precinct, and remove votes from any precinct. It just doesn't add up.
It only proves the old addage, "There are three types of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics."
Anytime you have these fantasy urges, either report in here for a reality check or go to Disney where they might make a movie about your life.
Just don't expect to apply your rationale here where it has no applicability.
Ok, off to have fun while daylight remains...
Posted by: scott158 on May 28, 2005 03:51 PMIf Gore really thought he had been cheated (which he didn't), he should have filed a contest and set forth his evidence. You know, the way Rossi is doing right now.
Of course, Gore didn't even want a statewide recount.
What was that you were saying about "hypocrisy" (though of course what you actually meant was "inconsistency")?
Posted by: ScottM on May 28, 2005 03:54 PMYah, Christine, whatever.
Posted by: Michele on May 28, 2005 04:15 PMLet me ask you where you protested Clinton's illegal, not apporved by the United Nations, war in Kosovo? Or do you only protest when a Republican is in the White House.
As Bidg Daddy (Burl Ives) said in "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof":
"I smell a whole lot of mendacity!"
Open mouth, insert foot Corky "I'm gonna rally the troops" Mattingly. What do you have to say for yourself now?
Posted by: cc on May 28, 2005 05:03 PMDave D, I suspect that "funny feeling" is the worms devouring what's left of your brain. This would account for your irrationality and generally distasteful demeanor.
I notice that you capitalized "values". At first I thought that it was just another of your grammar errors (too numerous to count), but then I realized that you probably did it on purpose.
I recall that, during the lead-up to the election, your goofus, I mean candidate kerry took (in one of his innumerable incarnations) to speaking about values. . .The problem was, he was meaning "principles".
We all have values. I 'value" air (it would be kinda hard to take a breath without it!). Stated without context, saying "I have values" is like saying "I can talk". kerry waxing idiotic about "values of family, faith, and country," "fundamental American values," and the "shared values that show the true face of America" rang as being as insincere and hollow as everything else about him, and he quickly abandoned it.
Conservatives were unsettled for a bit because we couldn't make the leap of illogic. then we figured it out - how can a man (or a party) speak to something that he has no idea of, or inclination towards?
So here we have dave.
dave didn't get the memo. The memo that said "ixnay on the alues-vay" because it makes demos look like idiots.
I would ask dave where this so-called republican hypocrisy exists, but he has likely gone on to leave his little rabbit turd deposits on some other website......
Posted by: alphabet soup on May 28, 2005 05:19 PMI just can't get over the amazement that a falsified report is not called fraud. How can that be?
King County has ruined itself and is not in the process of ruining the entire state. If I lived in Eastern WA, I think that I would just refuse to participate in the King County Banana Republic. I really don't understand why leaders from the rest of the state are not already in the process of forming their own state government.
After all, what would Gregoire, the KC pascifists, and the limited people left in Olympia be able to do about it? Not much. Scream and whine, but that's about it.
Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on May 28, 2005 05:32 PMIf the sane side of the state decided to form its own state, seems like it would go over pretty well to me. Of course, the KCBR would be screaming bloody murder, but there isn't a damn thing they could do about it.
So, I'm still wondering why the leaders of those counties are meeting, forming a state constitution, and forming their own state.
I know, this sounds crazy, but I really don't think it would be as complicated or as hard as people seem to believe.
Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on May 28, 2005 06:00 PMAre they now sending in their *second string* trolls?......
Or is it the same (troll) poster simply changing his username like they do at Goldies?....
Anyway - I hope 'Headless' was finally committed last night.....
Posted by: Deborah on May 28, 2005 07:45 PMSecond string trolls and trolls alike - you all don't know what the hell you are doing. The bloated quasi-socialist government in Olympia that you support is the monster that you helped create to the dismay of the rest of us. It may be too much to ask you to wise up - but its time to face reality and stop drinking the kool-aid lest you rot out your brains.
Posted by: KS on May 28, 2005 09:54 PMEven back then, he was lying. And knew it. Yet he pretended that ballot report was for real. And they say there was no fraud. OH, there WAS fraud. We know Logan tried to defraud the public.
Just imagine if Republican officials tried getting away with crud like this.....The MSM would be all over it "REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS PUT FORTH FALSIFIED BALLOT REPORT---DEMS CHARGE FRAUD"
Just another day at the office for the Dems.
Posted by: Jeff B. on May 28, 2005 10:24 PMDon't talk about splitting the state! Divide and conquer is the Demorat method.
You don't cut the body in half to remove a cancer. Take Seattle and Olympia and give them Vashon Island or something (we can always mine the harbors!)
The rest of the state would do nicely without them, thank you. The west side has a lot to offer to the east side and vice versa. That is one of the things I like most about Washington. We have it all here in one state. Unfortunately, we also have the socialists, but they are a SMALL area geographically. Maybe Canada would take them?
Posted by: Elmo on May 28, 2005 10:38 PMIf he does I'm sure it will be an amusing answer.
Liberals are all mentally deranged.
I too feel the citizens are restless and want to see some real change that benefits all.
I was just reading the infamous e-mail from Yakima County Auditor Corky Mattingly that Stefan posted a while ago. It just makes me sick to see how many auditors were ready to sign that letter in support of Dean "one of the leading elections professionals in the state and country" Logan.
She ended her "letter to the editor" saying "The public can have faith in the fact that the King County recount process in the Governor's race is in good hands and is being carried out according to the laws and procedures of the State of Washington. I highly respect Dean Logan and know there is no finer election official in the State of Washington than Dean Logan."
We knew this wasn't true then and we know this isn't true now...
Posted by: cc on May 29, 2005 12:00 AMAnyone who has read this blog KNOWs that consistently, election reform that promotes and demands accurate and accountable methods in promoting fairness is the MO of the people here. The fact of the matter is that if the information showed malfeasance on ANYONEs part, it would have become visible here, and derision towards the offending people would have been loud and strong. Sadly, because of the results, the donkey party's ox is being gored? Would it have been different had it been the Libertarians, Green, Socialist, or even Republican? YES!
There is an argument (valid) that the quest for visibility only came as a result of the loss of Rossi. Is that partisan? Is that evil? You tell me. We watched the Sound Transit vote, and did a cursory look through the media. Nothing came of it. We looked at Cantwell/Gorton, and even the media questioned some of the results. But still, no visibility came of it, and we grudgingly accepted the results despite an instinct that said something was wrong there. Here we are with a pattern established, and some people who wanted to see whether their instinct was wrong or not, and began looking. And here are the results.
My friend, this is what democracy looks like, to steal from the moonbat list of overused cliches. Yeah, if after a number of elections where the results seemed out of place, we chose to look at this one, and it seems partisan to others, SO BE IT! We, the electorate, have set an expectation for fair, efficient, and transparent electoral practices. And, that when bad things happen, we expect corrections. Partisan? Ok, I can sleep at night knowing that.
Having said that, SHAME on you moonbats for creating the situation in the first place. Distributed vote fraud, found ballots, weasely elections workers, dead people, felons, noncitizens voting, none of that would have been needed, if the people who voted for Kerry would have voted for CG.
There, I said it! CG should ahve won by what, 22K votes, if the donkey party would have had their people vote straight down the ticket. Unfortunately, she was such a weak and undesireable candidate, you couldn't even get her PARTY to vote for her. Sure, they saw her ineffectiveness at the AG post. They saw her direct monies collected in settlements towards private nonprofits, instead of sending it to the people screwed out of money. They saw her lose judgements out of missing deadlines. Her own party couldn't generate the interest to vote for her! Only when it became close and it looked like an eastern Washington Republican might win, did the concern about counts and recount, found votes and shennanigans come into play.
So, moonbat, ask yourself, "Was I part of the problem?" Did you vote for Kerry, and fail to vote for CG? And if you did fail to vote for CG, why? What about her made her undesireable then, yet the perfect governor for the people now? And people would look at me, calling ME a hypocrite. Hrmph!
And let it not be forgotten that Mr. Vance reads this blog, and not uncommonly, is subjected to some harsh criticism for that which he advocates. Particularly on the subject of continuing to sue the voters in an attempt to a) force the people to pay for a partisan primary that benefits his party, and b) arguing that his party's rights trump the rights of the individual voters. While we recognize that he is not alone, Mr. Berendt isn't chastised in here on the same subject. Yeah, I don't think we have a problem calling our own people on things unfair. Can you say the same thing, moonbat?
Nahhhh, I think we are just fine here. You moonbats have the media. If a party we aren't looking at deeply enough is committing things malfeasant, we'd know about it through them. We'll keep looking, of course, but there are so many other resources controlled by and supportive of the donkey party out here, we'd have legions of reporters investigating the reverse of this case, and you know it.
Tell you what. Continue down this path, moonbat, and see what happens. You see, we true Americans are trying to make things fair and equitable. We can accept losses if we lose fairly and justly. Apparently you can't. And with the increase of your rhetoric, attempts to cheat, nasty little tricks, and sheer fear based partisanship, you drive this state and this country down the road to potential civil war. I said it. Civil war. Keep up this nonsense nonrespectful, and keep building a climate where everything's a conspiracy or evil, and one of your nutcase moonbats is going to go into 'do or die' mode, do something stupid, and things devolve from there. Remember, the torch that set off WWI was the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand. It doesn't take much sometimes, when tension, stress, and rhetoric are high.
My suggestion is, moonbat, that you stop laying these IEDs without basis, and tone down the rhetoric. Engage in the dialogue, and admit things, even if they don't agree with your scorched earth policy of never allowing your archenemy to win anything. And, if you are trying to impress your friends, or get laid by going into the lair of the enemy and giving them 'what fer,' well, you need to evaluate your life and value to this world. It's not helpful. It's not respectful. It's not positive.
So, in the attempt to end this, I offer you this one key piece of advice that I hope you consider going forward. The people you smile at in the mall aren't your enemies, even if they don't agree with you. The are, after all, the citizens of our state. Use that for success and get away from this nonsense.
Steve
Posted by: Patches Pal on May 29, 2005 07:48 AM"The Seattle Times is conservative. The MSM is conservative. There's been plenty of conservative voice since November, etc. etc."
An excellent expression of the frustration we all feel toward the Democratic Party and the idiots that represent them here.
I doubt it will move any of them, but it helps sometimes for rest of us to remember what civilized discourse looks like.
Posted by: Deadwood on May 29, 2005 08:25 AM"I have been reading this blog [*HA.org] for a while and the one thing it has convinced me to do is invite every person I know who is politically undecided, a mushy in the middle moderate or just generally politically uninterested to come view it.
The wild rhetoric, the devolved language, the threats, the baseless accusations, the wild rants, and the simple moronic immaturity of the supporters of the far left liberal ideology promoted here [*HA.org] does more than anything I could possibly ever say or do to convince them to make up their minds toward conservatism.
I would invite any conservative that visits here [*HA.org] to also invite every family member, friend, coworker and neighbor to spend just 30 minutes reading the tripe posted here [*HA.org].
Then, ask them if this is truly reflective of the people with whom they want to be associated by political party or ideology.
Ask them to wonder why such extremism not only hasn’t been soundly denounced by that party’s spokesman, but appears to be encouraged.
Ask them to consider that this is where the next generation of spokesmen, representatives and elected officials will come from.
Ask them to think whether this is what they want for our country."
Comment by Convinced— 5/29/05 @ 10:58 am
Posted by: Convinced on May 29, 2005 11:06 AMWIth all the above qeuestions We may have seen only the tip of the iceberg. May hundred or thousands of votes fall into any of these categories. They are areas that fraud can take place. One simple thing can fix the situation. Voters must Show their ID at election time. ANd Drivers licenses must say if a person is a Citizen or a resident alien. If you get your citizenship legally then you can go to DMV and update your driver license with their citizenship.
Why does the Democratic Party ignore passing into law showing an ID to vote. A picture ID that is. Could it be that they will lose the chance of Multiple voting. Leaving only vote my mail fraud as fraud of choice.
You can not say that KC had tons of problems running this election. Yet why do the exact same problems show up in Wisconsin where voting fraud is being investigate by the feds. Also in a Democratic controlled county. Maybe this is a bigger problem than it appears when looking big picture.
Fraud is Fraud is someone votes for someone else that is fraud. If the system allows fraud to take place by individuals then the system is conducting Fraud because they dont fix as many of the problems as possible. IF the problems have been known for years and no fixes Yes then KC is at fault for allowing Fraud to take place. Most of these issues have been known for years and documented. Just like any Goverment Office they did not think it important enough to fix all the issues. I wonder why.
But since there is no true conspiracy in the sense of people in power conspiring to stuff (or empty) the ballot box, proving fraud is virtually impossible. The only crime that I see that Logan at al commmitted was to falsify the election report. But since they didn't have any hand in actual vote fraud--they just enabled it by looking away--convicting them of vote fraud would be extremely hard. And if no one can be convicted of vote fraud, proving any vote fraud will be impossible.
I can see no way out of this until the numbers of Dems and R's changes. The Democrats in the Legislature will continue to debase our election laws and call it reform. Rabid Dem activists will continue to commit distributed vote fraud confident that in a close election it can throw an election to their side (Gorton too?) while there is virtually no likelihood that anyone will be pursued even if a fraud was discovered.
Posted by: iconoclast on May 29, 2005 03:42 PMPlease enlighten me.
How do you conclude that there is no true conspiracy in the sense of people in power conspiring to stuff (or empty) the ballot box? There is a lot more evidence that they did than that they didn’t. In my opinion it is unreasonable to conclude that this all adds up to a big mistaken coincidence combined with a little white lie.
You just want something concrete and there will never be any such thing – it simply doesn't ever work that way. There is more evidence that a conspiracy of people in power stuffed and emptied the ballot box in this election than there was evidence that Scott Peterson killed his wife and son. Motive, means, opportunity, self incrimination – all exist here. The mob was brought down by Guiliani, Enron caught, and Richard Nixon with less evidence of a conspiracy and other wrong doing. Anyone who actually listened to the Nixon tapes had to *fill in the blanks* about what he was saying based on its context. Absent circumstance it meant NOTHING. He never said "hey guys lets go burglarize the Watergate," or anything of the kind. He was only caught because he didn’t immediately fess up and the case politically grew out of proportion.
If people are unable to trace a simple cause and effect relationship, I hope they do everyone a favor and never sit on a jury or act in a position to decide anything important for anyone including themselves. Nothing personal but I cannot fathom what many people believe is supposed to be ***Proof of fraud***
WHAT IS A TRUE CONSPIRACY?
FRAUD a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain. The American Heritage Dictionary, p.531 (2nd College ed.1982)
The purpose of the King County Canvassing Board November 2, 2000 General Election Mail Ballot Report was to verify that the number of absentee ballots received was the same as the total of the number counted plus the number rejected. Ms. Way admits that it did not do what the law requires, and this – of course – is because she lied when she certified that the numbers were true and accurate. Instead of verifying that the numbers were true and accurate, she simply summed subtotal lines 3 and 4 on the Mail Ballot Report. To normal competent human beings in common English this means that Nicole Way LIED, and as a public official, her lying to certify something to the public is FRAUD.
Of course to democrats it is something (anything) else.
Almost always, voting when you are a convicted felon, or because you have already voted in the same election, or because you are voting in someone else’ name, or you are deceased is illegal. Every legal citizen over the age of 18 should get one vote per election, and it should be counted even if you are a Republican. An elections board that allows any of these things to happen to the extent that they could use due diligence to prevent them is guilty of malfeasance. If the outcome obviously favors a candidate of an elections board’s choosing it is constructive FRAUD.
Of course democrats think differently (anything that elects them).
Where numerous precincts that generally favor Republicans shows a significant number of illegal under-votes, and where like precincts favoring Democrats shows a significant number of over-votes, these could conceivably and theoretically be coincidences; but in the real world where humans live, they are multiple corroborating evidences of an organized FRAUD.
IF THIS IS NOT FRAUD THE WORD FRAUD IS PRACTICALLY MEANINGLESS Someone please explain to me why copious quantities of evidence of a conspiracy to defraud, evinces no attribution of fraud.
Sorry I don't buy it.
Fraud is possible to prove, it has been proven here, and all anyone needs to do now is to call FRAUD FRAUD .
Unfortunately, that is the beauty of this sort of scheme. All it has to do is depend upon a sufficient number of individuals willing commit small amounts of fraud (distributed vote fraud). Those individuals are covered by incredibly slack election laws, regulations, as well as incompetent execution. But since there is no smoking gun easily found (and the Republicans do not have the power to investigate effectively) then it is very hard to prove vote fraud.
Imagine walking up to Chopp or some other Democrat legislator and accusing them of enabling voter fraud with their criminally loose "reform". Or doing the same to Sims, given the information we have to date. They will just laugh, claim that your are criminalizing legitimate political differences, and walk off. No fingerprints, no proof. Correlation is not causation.
And, since no prosecutor is willing to really ferret out the truth using the kinds of investigatory practices that Guiliani (or Spitzer) used, the truth will never come out. McKay, Maleng, and McKenna refuse to really investigate likely criminal activity so what do you expect to happen?
Did Wray, Hunnykins, et al lie? Sure. Does that prove vote fraud? No, just that they lied about the report. Will they go to jail for that lie? Don't make me laugh, McKenna and Maleng wouldn't dare go after them. And McKay would much rather investigate some unpopular alleged pedofile than bother the truly powerful in WA state.
I don't like it either, but unless some real criminal investigators with real police power (like the Feds, with the power to imprison people who lie to them, regardless of their guilt or innocence on the matter under investigation) dig into this corruption proving electoral fraud will be impossible.
It comes back to what John Fund said awhile back.
If it isn't close, they can't cheat
So first we make it not close, then we clean up the system.
Posted by: iconoclast on May 29, 2005 05:05 PMIf it isn't close, they can't cheat
So first we make it not close, then we clean up the system."
That my become a self-fulfilling prophesy, because while it's true that no one in King County will feel any pain, I think that this whole thing, put together with the hands-in-the-cookie-jar legislative session will smack them hard in 2006. And I don't think that it matters much what the courts rule. This has, despite the MSM and the spin cycle, had a palpable and profound on the perception of Washingtonians.
Win or loose in court, it's initiative time.
Posted by: Dogbert on May 29, 2005 05:30 PMIf you deliberately and systematically enact measures that allow extralegal voting by those with a proclivity to do so and then encourage the same by having 'voter' registration drives that target these same individuals, what is it then?
Democratic politics as usual? Heck, one would think that providing driver licenses to illegal aliens, opening in-state college admissions to illegal aliens, and forbidding police to ask about alien status would be illegal. But nothing comes of it.
Barring major screw ups by the Republicans...
We will see if they can do that. The Republican party needs to start playing for keeps, though. Maybe thumbscrews on McKenna and Maleng for starters.
Posted by: iconoclast on May 29, 2005 06:03 PMIt would seem to me that several folks from King County Elections deserve some vacation time courtesy of WA State. From the looks of it, several laws were broken. So prosecution would be appropriate. Even some minor consequences might have dramatic results in future elections.
Posted by: iconoclast on May 29, 2005 06:12 PMYour comments are well taken. However, I argue that fraud is fraud whether it is pre-termed constructive, distributed, and collective or anything else.
As Americans we have become so well indoctrinated to lawyer tricks that we have lost the essence of the law. Equity Jurisprudence was developed to draw clear logical lines of distinction between mere innocent mistakes and malice. Malice can be proven quite adequately by surrounding acts where those acts can be demonstrated as have been inconsistent with innocent behavior of the party in question.
We do not need a statute to tell us that Logan, Heunnekens and others were responsible for the King County elections process. We only need common sense to conclude from the evidence that they failed to do their job, and that their failure caused an incorrect outcome. In focus, failure can mean mistake or fraud and fraud can be derived from actions more easily than many assert. Fraud is tough but not that tough, and Bridges has discretion enough to be smart.
If as a bank official, one fails to monitor transactions such that they make it easy for others to steal your money from a bank at which you are a depositor, they are as responsible as the thieves. If the bank official says, “gee I was not watching that day,” I would consider it very strong evidence that he /she were not watching any particular day and therefore they conspired with theives to steal my money. I don't have to know the names of everyone involved in order to know that the bank official participated. No reasonable person can conclude that given this – and only this evidence – the bank official is not culpable. More evidence may ameliorate his culpability, but excuses are not evidence, and less only proves by circumstance from actions surrounding the events and he is guilty of fraud.
Anyone who takes on a [public] or any other trust also takes on all of the responsibility that comes with it. An express duty to act in the favor of the public is imposed, and it is the express duty of the Elections Board to organize, conduct and administer elections. If they fail to do their job for any reason and one significant group of people is damaged by it, the whole public at large is damaged. Should incidents occur that are the direct result of such failures, the question left is if the failures were intentional or not. Intent can be easily traced both by direct evidence and indirect or circumstantial evidence gathered from actions surrounding events.
A ranch hand trusted with livestock who leaves a gate open when the gate is there to keep in the horses can be said to have impliedly permitted the horses to leave the corral. When asked if he let the horses out, if such a ranch hand says “gee I was not watching that day,” or "golly there were a lot of horses that day," he is not admitting a mistake, but an intentional act of omission that damaged the Rancher who lost livestock. The ranch hand may be a very stupid liar, but he is nevertheless a liar. However – is he guilty of fraud? If the horses are later found on his land and that of his friends, he should be considered guilty of theft and fraud.
To believe otherwise is to let the best intentions of our friends and comrades to disable us to our enemies subterfuge.
If elected officials or even volunteers for charity do not want to take on that implied fiduciary duty, then politely back out.
Don't later pretend (when you goof up) that you did not know the implications of your actions. You happily accepted your salaries without a whimper or question as to whether you deserved it.
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on May 31, 2005 11:30 AM