May 25, 2005
Rescind that Pulitzer, now.

David Horsey, hang your head in shame:



Here is a snippet of Horsey's response to a letter from an angry reader:

It is unfathomable to me that folks who claim to believe in American values get upset about a poorly–sourced item in Newsweek or a cartoon that is almost a literal interpretation of the facts yet seem to be unconcerned about torture being perpetrated in their name.
Right. Look up the words 'literal' and 'facts,' Horsey. If you really believe that our soldiers would say something like "another one of them dang muslim ragheads up and died on us," or that there really is anything like a "Torture room #4," then your credulity is exceeded only by your contempt for our troops.

For a stark contrast to this kind of delusional outlook, see here for the clarity of reality.

Vietnamese despot Ho Chi Minh once said: "We cannot win this war fighting the U.S. military. We can only win it on the streets of America." Al Qaeda, like Ho, has found new allies in America.

Update: More on this here and here.

Posted by Brian Crouch at May 25, 2005 09:27 AM | Email This
Comments
1. Moonbat. Used to be a good cartoonist, but that was then, this is now.

Posted by: Dogbert on May 25, 2005 09:43 AM
2. Horsey is wll named - judging by his leavings

Posted by: Bill on May 25, 2005 09:43 AM
3. Why is it that it is only from those of a liberal persuasion that I read words or see "cartoons" depicting others in horid and demeaning ways? Guess the thought police can't police their own thoughts.... which they then project and attribute to those they loath and hate such as the military and any conservative. (Don't worry... their Hate is good... our hate is what's bad)

Posted by: Victor on May 25, 2005 09:44 AM
4. It's people like Horsey that eventually cause more U.S. casualties, but perhaps that is their goal.
They are anti-military and anti-American to the core.
What about all the butchering that is being done by our enemies? That is never presented in a fair manner.
I say take no prisoners, and there will not be any problem with prisoner mal-treatment.

Posted by: otto on May 25, 2005 09:49 AM
5. Maybe he should change his name to HORSEYshit

Posted by: Mike on May 25, 2005 09:49 AM
6. Consider the source.

Posted by: JDH on May 25, 2005 09:50 AM
7. The world is full of A - - holes, some of them spend there life trying to prove they are. Occasionally one gets a Pulitzer for there effort.

Posted by: Roy Boy on May 25, 2005 09:50 AM
8. Sure, Horsey's a moonbat, but how many dedicated P-I readers do you think believe - or worse, hope - this is going on?

But, but, but they 'support the troops.'

Posted by: jimg on May 25, 2005 09:55 AM
9. Is this really something that a cartoonist ought to be exagerating in order to make a point? I imagine that the Left is now praising Horsey for being so courageous in his "literal and factual" presentation of this issue. Kinda makes you wonder who is going to be slimed in Horsey's next cartoon.

Posted by: Gary on May 25, 2005 09:57 AM
10. "Maybe he should change his name to HORSEYshit"

Or HORSEYsass.com

Posted by: Dogbert on May 25, 2005 10:05 AM
11. Well, Gary, I know who will not be:

UBL
Muslims
Any anti US terrorists

Maybe he will try Christians, they are fair game without 'excluding' anyone.

Posted by: Fred on May 25, 2005 10:06 AM
12. I can only say that it is appropriate that Dave Horsey recieved a Pulitzer-

Joseph Pulitzer is the inventor of Yellow Journalism.

http://www.onlineconcepts.com/pulitzer/yellow.htm

Lately, it appears that "journalists" with this award (along with the Peabody Award) are to be avoided.

Posted by: Kevin Stewart on May 25, 2005 10:10 AM
13. These liberals that "support" our troops seem to primarily want them to come home so that they have someone to spit on - just like they did 30 years ago.

How many Al Queda beheading cartoons has Horsey made "literal and factual" presentations about?

Posted by: Jack on May 25, 2005 10:11 AM
14. He IS taking a shot at Christians today.

Posted by: SheriJo on May 25, 2005 10:13 AM
15. I was disgusted when I saw his latest "funny" cartoon. The liberal moral relativism is frightening. Now America has the world's newest "gulog" and our soldiers are the terrorists...white is black and the sky is lime green. No wonder I turned away from the left...I prefer logic and reason.

Posted by: megs on May 25, 2005 10:14 AM
16. Well, all I can say is "Thank you" Horsey and your ilk for putting some childs mom or dad or some parents son or daughter in harms way. It's really appreciated that you can sit on your fat butt and create this kind of slim to be published to fan the flames of hate toward those who are willing to take a bullet on your behalf.

So, what's it like sleeping with the enemy anyway?

Stupid %&(% *&##&_^ cartoon!

Note: This post is full of sarcasm and is intended for the use to make the MSM look like the fools they are. No cash refunds.

Posted by: A Marine Mom on May 25, 2005 10:16 AM
17. "He IS taking a shot at Christians today."

Fred is a prophet (as if this was hard to see coming).

Posted by: Dogbert on May 25, 2005 10:17 AM
18. The left actual believes the terrorist have Geneva Convention protections. Read up, GC covers legal combatants under orders of a legitimate government sanction.

Those we have captured in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere are by GC definition illegal combatants. (Aside the left has a real problem with illegal, illegal votes, illegal reconciliation, illegal immigrants) Illegal combatants have NO GC protection, and are libel to summary execution.

In other-words we would be completely within our rights with legal international sanction to lie up everyone of these SOB and shoot them in head.

We have as a humanitarian gesture have extended GC protection to those we have capture.

The military released the Abu Gharib information to the press months before it made the headlines. In the cases of abuse and death we are prosecuting and jailing our own soldiers.

David (has his head up his) Horsey is a foaming barking moonbat.

Posted by: JCM on May 25, 2005 10:19 AM
19. This is amazing even for Horsey. In the 1990's Hesbollah kidnapped a LTC in Lebenon who was a intelligence agent and they tortured him to death including introducing a large diameter pipe to his nether regions and allowing starved rats to use it as an entre point, then they hung him and televised it, and I did not see Horsey runing cartoons about that!

Posted by: dennis on May 25, 2005 10:22 AM
20. Dogbert, That is the worst part, it wasn't hard to see coming, though the speed did surprise me!

A Marine Mom - I certainly hope all is going well with your son/daughter. I'm sure that you are never tired or get enough reassurance that there is a vast majority that thanks you, wishes you well, and are very, very grateful for the sacrafices that your family is going through! Fortunately the slime presented in the MSM does not represent the country!

Posted by: Fred on May 25, 2005 10:24 AM
21. JCM - It only became a big story when it approached the election. Before that (when the military reported it) the story may have become stale too early.

Posted by: Fred on May 25, 2005 10:29 AM
22. Marine Mom--
Like Fred--with you 100%; individuals don't have big media at their disposal, but there are legions of us behind you, your Marine & your families;

We need no reminder of the wonderful things we have here courtesy of our military; Arlington and the Unknown Soldier are burned forever in my thoughts;

Cartoonists like Horsey are little snots. Being ventriloquists, they can get away with farting sounds in church. They never stand up and take lumps. When pressed to defend their OWN families or property, they suddenly morph into hawkish conservatives and bring out the big guns, big lawyers, etc. They never learned (first-hand) the "bully-in-the-playground" lesson--thus their twisted view of the world and their country.

NOtice he does not do political cartoons in Lybia, Iran or other places of tolerance?

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on May 25, 2005 10:40 AM
23. Speaking of "political cartoons", I featured a post on my (sorely out of date) blog back in November about all the racist cartoons in papers about Condoleezza Rice. I see that the neglect of my blog also resulted in me forgetting 2005's Condi Rice day...bummer.

Anyway, check out a small sampling of the cartoons I found which, if they were ridiculing a black female LIBERAL, would have resulted in no less than firings and riots reminiscent of Rodney King:

http://livinginbabylon.blogspot.com/2004/11/racist-cartoons-about-condoleezza-rice.html

Posted by: Scott on May 25, 2005 10:49 AM
24. It is unfathomable to me that folks who claim to believe in American values get upset about a poorly–sourced item in Newsweek or a cartoon that is almost a literal interpretation of the facts

That would be the "Fake but accurate " defense employed by Dan Rather.

Posted by: South County on May 25, 2005 10:54 AM
25. It’s not enough to simply stop buying the PI.
Call an advertiser in this rag and tell them what you think.

Perhaps Macys will think twice before funning full-page ads in this fish wrap. I don’t have to buy the PI and I don’t have to shop at Macys

Posted by: Brad on May 25, 2005 11:38 AM
26. No matter how poorly written or in poor taste you believe the cartoon to be, it represents American rights and values. You're right, if Horsey had done this in other countries, a group of which our current administration considers allies, he would have been killed, instead, he only has to read angry responses from pi$$ed-off conservatives that think all the news that's fit to print should be scribed by a republican....

Posted by: Randy on May 25, 2005 12:09 PM
27. Randy,

Horsey's cartoon implies torture and murder are policy.

That is a patently false. We are prosecuting those who violate our policies.

Where is your outrage over rape rooms, mass graves, gassing, targeting of women and children, hiding behind women and children?

Posted by: JCM on May 25, 2005 12:18 PM
28. Randy - you couldn't be more wrong. It does NOT IN ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER represent American values. Where do you get such garbage. An American right it is, but values?

Posted by: Fred on May 25, 2005 12:29 PM
29. You may call it "values" Randy, but normal people call it crap. Trying to rationalize it by intimating an associating Horsey's "Values" to some phantom "allies" just makes you sound stupid.

You aren't stupid, are you Randy?

Oops. I spoke too soon...."angry responses from pi$$ed-off conservatives that think all the news that's fit to print should be scribed by a republican...."

Nevermind, you are stupid!

Posted by: alphabet soup on May 25, 2005 12:29 PM
30. Sounds like Horsey hit a nerve with the chest-thumping folk who think patriotism encompasses only point of view. Alas, their logic is about as sound as their spelling skills.

I'd love to see a scintilla of justification for the argument that views like Horsey's put American troops "in harm's way." In this neo-McCarthyite Orwellian funhouse mirror world, if we express our First Amendment rights "the terrorists win."

Posted by: Proud Progressive on May 25, 2005 12:36 PM
31. We are not abridging Horsey's right to be an a**. We are critical of his content, that he is factually wrong. Since when does the 1st amendment shield someone from criticism?

Posted by: JCM on May 25, 2005 12:43 PM
32. Proud - Do you remember Tokyo Rose? You do not seem to realize there is a limit to free speech. That newsweek article definitely was used as an excuse to go on a murder spree. You for some reason feel that there does not need to be any responsibility on what one says.

If some one called some (non-republican) black a n... is that covered by your definition of free speech, or should there be repercussions? But falsely saying that someone desecrated a (non-Christian) religious symbol which was used as an excuse to murder you are alright with that?

Posted by: Fred on May 25, 2005 12:47 PM
33. (1) The Newsweek item is not necessarily false; it was retracted because it could not be properly sourced. FBI documents confirm that similar complaints have been made Guantanamo detainees as early as 2002. (See http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/052505/)
(3) Tokyo Rose? The absurdity of the analogy speaks for itself. Tokyo Rose tried to incite U.S. troops to commit treason. Since when is reporting the truth -- however unappealling it may be -- equivalent to suborning treason?


Posted by: Proud Progressive on May 25, 2005 01:04 PM
34. David Horsey has always had a weak spot for anyone that hates the US, especially the military, or Republicans.
I am sure that he really enjoys endorsing those checks from George Soros, and Al Jezerra.
He is one of the reasons I stopped subscribing to the PI.

Posted by: Skeptic on May 25, 2005 01:09 PM
35. Keep defending him PProg and Randy. It's only what you believe to be true which is truth, right. Believe our enemies. Makes no difference to me. But it certainly does reflect upon you.

Express your first amendment rights, but don't get all snitty when people get tired of your crap.

"Chest thumping"? That's a good one coming from an uber-lib.

Posted by: jimg on May 25, 2005 01:16 PM
36. JCM said:

In other-words we would be completely within our rights with legal international sanction to lie up everyone of these SOB and shoot them in head.

We have as a humanitarian gesture have extended GC protection to those we have capture.

you're sicko.

Posted by: JDM on May 25, 2005 01:26 PM
37. "It's only what you believe to be true which is truth, right. Believe our enemies."

Golly, for those of us in the reality-based commnity, there are actually objective standards for truth. Empirical evidence (such as that reflected by the government's own records in response to FOIAs) is the basis for this, not "believ[ing] our enemies." I'll leave the faith-based hokum to the GOP jihadists.

Posted by: Proud Progressive on May 25, 2005 01:33 PM
38. JCM said:

"Randy,

Horsey's cartoon implies torture and murder are policy."

The cartoon had nothing to do with gassing's, rape rooms, or women and children, if I were to bring up a national political topic in response to one of Stefan's posts on Wa politics I would be told to stick to the subject. I am outraged at all of the acts Muslim extremist have committed, however I do not believe that affords the U.S. the right to return the acts. Eye for an eye as far as torture goes to me doesn't seem like an acceptable answer.

I personally have never seen war up close, nor had to deal with individuals whose disregard for their own life is equaled by their disregard of others, therefore I cannot even imagine what our soldiers would want to do to these combatants once they've been captured. However I do believe that which should make American's proud is that we can do our part in ridding the world of these terrorists by not stooping to their level. Torturing them, only for the rest of the world to find out about, only makes our cause harder, no matter how badly we want to inflict the same pain in retaliation.

The cartoon is open for interpretation obviously, I personally view it as is. Newsweek reporting an act, which may or may not be true, isn't the reason why we have a poor image, we have numerous documented acts that have already accomplished that. Had nothing ever been reported regarding abuse and then this came out of left field, yeah, Newsweek could have some issues, but the cartoon is displaying the fact that there are numerous documented, and prosecuted cases of torture and abuse and this one reporting isn’t exactly tarnishing a far from squeaky clean American image abroad.

Posted by: Randy on May 25, 2005 01:52 PM
39. "Humanitarian gesture to captured?" Maybe some basics--Is anyone replaying the Hanoi Hilton tapes? How about the Long March? I do not advocate torture, but these are not school kids. Why the kid gloves?

Anyone replaying the headcutting tapes of Western "captives?" Anyone interested in replaying the tapes of 9-11 and our fellow citizens jumping for their lives? Not as exciting as American Idol, eh?

This is war, if you are snoozing. Liberals want us to "play fair"--wait until stuck--yea? Bio or nukes do not discriminate--they are the most "progressive." Problem is, your reaction to them (if you are not vigilant) is zippo if any. Put THAT in your progressive, internationalist pipe. Look at Spain--some voting victory--now, they are being wagged by the terrorist tail. You want that in downtown Bellevue or Yakima? I think not.

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on May 25, 2005 02:03 PM
40. By the way--

how many Horsey cartoons show America (for many years) feeding the hungry, running to help tsunami/disaster victims, building hospitals and water plants?

The concept seems lost on that cartooner. Easier to pander and show the "highway accident gore." Horsey's a punk kid who teases you from high in a tree.

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on May 25, 2005 02:09 PM
41. Dog bits man...not a story, man bite dog...

Jimmie, his cartoons are in a newspaper for Gosh's sake. Do you ever watch the news, Fox would even count for this example? The stories leading the headlines are not America builds a damn, or America rescues siamese kittens from tree in Asia. If that is what sold newspapers and obtained viewership, you'd see it all the time....in our society though, it doesn't, we want the gore, you don't want it because it reflects poorly on the party that is in control. Its Republican versus Democrats, if Democrats were in the white house and all of this was going on, I imagine you'd be right there defending the administration and cursing (your media source here) for lax journalism. The best thing that could happen for Horsey is to have everyone up in arms about his cartoon, now people will want to see what he does next cause he is so terrible, so they'll buy the newspaper, which causes corporate profits to go up, which causes more Horsey cartoons....

Posted by: Timmie-doin-fine on May 25, 2005 02:30 PM
42. Troll alert - troll alert - troll alert

A bunch of newbie trolls cropping up here -- must be a seminar clatch down at the Post Intestinal -- Horsey sucks and has for many years -- ya want blood and gore to sell your d--- rags -- get the real stuff - the heads being sawn off and the mass graves and the videos from Saddem's torture rooms - you liberal crapheads are going down the tube o'history -- bye - bye babies

Posted by: Bill on May 25, 2005 02:41 PM
43. David Horsey is beyond shame. The P-I should hang their heads in shame for employing him. A more vile, contemptible cartoon than this I've never seen. Would he have the guts to say in prose that the U.S. military routinely tortures and murderers prisoners? No, he would not. He hides behind his crude cartoons, as if that somehow gives liberty for such vicious smears. He's beneath contempt.

Posted by: jsa on May 25, 2005 02:52 PM
44. We should probably blame the FBI now too, since there's this memo and all...bet the white house wished that didn't get out

Posted by: FBIMEMO on May 25, 2005 03:03 PM
45. JDH, I am talking points of international law. Illegal combatants have no status and are libel for summary execution. That's the Geneva Convention.

We don't do that, the ones we capture when have treat better than international law requires.

Our troops that violate our policy are being prosecuted.

As to being a sicko, we aren't the ones driving car bombs into crowds of children.

Posted by: JCM on May 25, 2005 03:56 PM
46. Horsey sees the writing on the wall. The PI is short-lived. Time to pad his portfolio with the most inflammatory images he can conjure up and start looking for the next gig. Personally I think he should stick to his specialty--degrading caricatures of outrageously buxom women (probably attributed to his late weaning).

Posted by: Organization Man on May 25, 2005 05:17 PM
47. I probably shouldn't feed the trolls, but now and then you just gotta scratch that itch...

Proud Progressive said, "I'd love to see a scintilla of justification for the argument that views like Horsey's put American troops "in harm's way."

Happy to oblige for you, Proud:
----------------------------------
Argument thesis: views like Horsey's put American troops in harm's way.

Reasoning:
Horsey is arguing, with his "interpration," that American soldiers are vicious thugs who, under orders, torture prisoners, and are thus immoral butchers. He seems to also be arguing that this is standard procedure (if not official orders)among Americans, that no American soldier (or Americans other than himself and a few select enlightened few) seems to question this practice or order, and that there are no reprecussions for this torture at all. (For extra credit: can you spot the falsehoods in the previous sentence?)

The audience for his cartoon is probably *originally* American, but there is a good chance, based on the cartoonist's reputation and the controversial Anti-American content, that this cartoon will be picked up and circulated internationally.
If it is circulated internationally, then it is quite likely that it will be reprinted (either illegally or legally) in Middle Eastern countries, due (again) to its content and subject matter, which agrees with the prejudices or ideology of many who live in the region. Those viewers of this cartoon who lack accurate information or context to balance against the one-sided argument of this cartoon may then use it to justify, or to continue to justify, killing American soldiers (and their "stooges"), as they are (according to the cartoon) clearly immoral creatures.

Conclusion: cartoons such as this may put U.S. soldiers in harms way.
-------------

Note that if all conditions are met, then your "scintilla" of evidence would be satisfied. As for proof that the conditions would be met, consider the effects of the controversial and non-proven Newsweek article--clearly, all the "ifs" here are supported by what happened to that article.

But to add idiocy to insult, you continued:
"In this neo-McCarthyite Orwellian funhouse mirror world, if we express our First Amendment rights "the terrorists win.""

Ah, fun with jargon! Is it too much for you to use real English instead of trying to baffle people or impress people with BS?
You expect people to believe that this is a neo-McCarthyite Orwellian world, and that it is a mirror world, and that it is a "funhouse"?
What do you base your evidence on, other than ideology or clever insults?
And First Amendment rights, you dolt, keep the GOVERNMENT from having the power to censor things like this. I doubt very much that the powers that be (many of whom happen to be "proud progressives" such as yourself) can...or did...censor this cartoon, as much as they might
Horsey is free to publish what he wants, but it is not a violation of first amendment rights one "scintilla" if readers or viewers of what he publishes use their first amendment rights to criticize his cartoon. Horsey is not really a victim that needs protection, is he?


Posted by: Psuedotsuga on May 25, 2005 05:24 PM
48. JDH, I am talking points of international law. Illegal combatants have no status and are libel for summary execution. That's the Geneva Convention.

Really? Could you cite a reference, 'cause I've never seen that in there. The US also is signator to the anti-torture treaty.

We don't do that, the ones we capture when have treat better than international law requires.

You might want to read up on this, as both SCOTUS and (mostly Bush appointed) Fed courts have *all* disagreed with you.

Regardless, now +- 80% of gitmo "detainees" have been declared innocents. Higher in Abu Gahrib. Or in other words, most of these people were not combatents. Which AFAIC is a showcase for intent behind due process, and likewise a warning against those who would circumvent it.

Our troops that violate our policy are being prosecuted.

A couple of show cases.

There's been nearly a dozen previously undisclosed incidents made public just in last week. A number of these include detainee accounts of FBI and/or CIA present during torture. And then the rendition...


Posted by: JDM on May 25, 2005 06:02 PM
49. Timmie? This is Jimmie. Get the gloves out...

Gore & blood? Agree. It sells. So does sex. So what? Dem. or Rep., there should be some sense of propriety. I still respected the institution and office of Billy-Bob from AR, even though I was saddened at the splat on our country's face from HIS CHOICES. Can't imagine what some in uniform felt, who put a heck of a lot MORE on the line than I did. Thus my deep anger at the cartoon, but it's his right to say it. Prisoner abuse? Well, look back at history. Anyone still crying for Hanoi Hilton "guests?" Anyone still crying for genocide in Africa? NO--It's always the mean Americans. Ergo, that's a crock.

By the way, no party is immune--I'll grill any that takes the taxpayer as a fool. And both parties have. I believe in informed, independent vigilance. And yes--I'll admit when I'm wrong & buy you a beer. As the Star Trek episode goes: "The needs of the many outwiegh the needs of the few (or one)." Example: this current voting trial in WA.

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on May 25, 2005 06:29 PM
50. horse's a

Posted by: dave on May 25, 2005 06:30 PM
51. "Al Qaeda, like Ho, has found new allies in America."

Exactly, only not quite how you think. Early on Osama stated that he wants to draw the west into a holy war with islam - nothing there about "We cannot win this war fighting the U.S. military. We can only win it on the streets of America." His only use for america is to have us enrage the Islamic population enough to 'awaken' them and drive them to him to fight. He doesn't want to win the war - he wants to start one.

The videos of westerners held captive are ad campaigns to attract the violent and pathological, they aren't messages sent to scare the american people. Thats why the terrorist holding westerners captive aren't sending videos to FOX news and CNN - they're going to al jazeera - it's a message to be heard within the Arab and Islamic world, not the US's. They could really give a flying hoot about what we think. In the end its not really about us, its all about them.

So, they dont neccesarily want us out. They want a bloodbath. And we seem to be more than willing to accomodate. And they capitalize on their self created violence and destruction, but they also capitalize when we screw up to make their cause seem more legitimate ("Sure we behead westerners, but they imprison us and beat us to death").

Of course its not a fair picure of the military its a damn political cartoon - they're not supposed to be fair and complete portrayals. Its like saying the media persion in this cartoon was actually asking for directions (which, for the record, I find to be a good cartoon, should anyone accuse me of political bias).

What I get from the Horsey cartoon is that we've already done enough to cut ourselves off at the knees, and in the end the Newsweek thing is just a drop in the bucket. The extremeness of the cartoon gives you, for a second, a taste of what we're doing must seem like to some people "over there."

Posted by: chaz on May 25, 2005 08:12 PM
52. on a different note - Horsey's got a left wing bent. But not without limits:

Finally, our president

Should have stoned him

Peacenicks gone too far

peacenick standing idly by

You may disagree with what he has to say, but as these comments attest, he IS thought provoking. I believe he is playing an important role as a critic of our own actions. I dont agree with a lot of what he portrays, but he always makes me think about it, and he has done it consistently. Dont expect a political cartoonist to feed you truth and facts, expect him to make you think.

As far as I'm concerned, his pulitzer is deserved.

Posted by: chaz on May 25, 2005 08:45 PM
53. Pseudotsuga:

First, why the negative term "troll"? I thought "post a comment" means what it says. Or is this like a GWB "town meeting" where all views are welcome except different ones? Is vigorous debate or civil discourse a problem here?

As to your argument, you say there is a "good chance" that it's "quite likely" Horsey's cartoon could be distributed in the Arab world and if so "may" put U.S. soldiers in "harms [sic] way." Where I come from they call that speculation, not evidence. How many U.S. citizens were killed, or even injured in the riots resulting from the one paragraph Newsweek article?

I think we can all agree that the folks rioting about such stuff are idiotic zealots. Does that mean we should kowtow to their stupidity? Should any opinion or fact that inflames our enemies be supressed? Why are all the macho saber-rattling folk suggesting that America should hide its light under a bushel, bite its tongue and subject itself to a heckler's veto?

And I'm sorry if you don't care for long words, Pseud (is there a hint in your tag?), but I think the meaning is pretty clear. GWB may boast about not reading the papers, but I hope we can do a tad better than that.

Posted by: Proud Progressive on May 25, 2005 08:59 PM
54. Yes, this kind of trash that Horsey considers worthy of print Does In Fact put our military in harms way. Did we already forget about the crap, oops, I mean fact based article that Newsweek printed and then a few days retracted? It only killed little over a dozen people, but hey, who's counting there are too many people on the plante anyway.

Yes, this kind of trash makes it out into the theater and it is used as "gospel" against our militay by those who wish us and our way of life dead.

So, the real question I want answered by Proud Pee is what are you doing to help fight the enemy? Apparently you don't know what is really going on over there. You "think" you do, but you don't know the "facts". (Again, kinda reminds me of Newsweek and CBS)

Spewing your ideas on blog does not count.

Oh and one more thing, tell your friends who hate the military to quit spitting on my car and me just because I have a KIA bumber sticker to honor my Marine's best friend who was killed. It makes them seem rather "HATE-FILLED".

Posted by: A Marine Mom on May 25, 2005 10:57 PM
55. With you Marine Mom--
ProudP and that ilk want to excuse and reason their way out of every jam. Does not work with fanatic killers. Thus the need for firepower. With PP's 'world citizen' attitude, we can outsource our military to some other nation or world council and become a has-been stinkhole country. Not me. A strong army keeps crazies at bay.

Horsey has a right to draw dung. We have a right to identify it as anti-American dung. People like Horsey enjoy many financial perks and freedoms in America. Why such contempt for their country? Guilt? This goes beyond mere opinion differences. Would he dare try cartooning & slamming minorities in the U.S.? How many Muslim-slamming cartoons did he pen? Mr. Brave from behind the drawing board. Weenie. Horsey: Your loose-cannon speech and drawings DO matter--take the responsibility & criticism.

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on May 26, 2005 05:18 AM
56. Jimmie: I suppose you didn't follow the links to other Horsey cartoons above from Chaz.

Marine Mom: I certainly don't "hate the military," or anyone else, however malicious and crude their speech may be. The right wing has no monopoly on patriotism or support for our troops. We progressives just believe that truth and free speech are greater tools in advancing American interests than censorship and bullying. As for the accuracy of the Koran story, I again challenge you to face facts:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20050525/ts_nm/security_guantanamo_koran_dc

Posted by: Proud Progressive on May 26, 2005 11:13 AM
57. Said it before - I'll say it again....

He ain't called "Horsey's-ass" for nothing (proving in the bargain Goldstein's complete lack of originality)....

Posted by: alphabet soup on May 26, 2005 11:36 AM
58. Our freedom of speech does not end where danger starts. Benjamin Franklin aply said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

It is because of our freedom of speech, which includes the difficult freedom to criticize our own government, that we have a military that is unequaled in its ability to minimize civilian casualties while still successfully carrying out its objectives. That is a large part of what makes me proud to be an American.

To give up this right and to practice self censorship (which is only a step away from government enforced censorship) because it may make terrorists upset is to give these people a veto over what we can read and hear. I support our troops and I will not do our soldiers the disservice of voluntarily surrendering to a terrorist veto the very freedoms that our armed forces fight and die to protect.

Posted by: chaz on May 27, 2005 11:58 AM
59. From SheriJo:
>>He IS taking a shot at Christians today.

Sheri - dont confuse the religious right with Christains. A lot of us Christains don't appreciate it.

Posted by: Jeffery on May 27, 2005 12:06 PM
60. ProudP--
Point taken. No, didnt look at other cartoons. Yes, you do have right to criticize your government.

However, you used the phrase "...advancing American interests..." How does that happen when you shoot your own toe in front of the world? Sure--it looks 'fair and balanced,' but how many terrorists or our enemies willingly question themselves or weaken their postures in front of us? Did the Japanese do this in WW2?

There is a thing called "united face" to the enemies. Call yourselves weak or corrupt to your enemies and you lose the psycological battle and give them that much more ammo.

I don't advocate censorship, just common sense in calling yourself (or your military) a dufus in front of the world--where is Horsey's basic pride in just being a lucky American?? That's my point. Poor choice in image. No restraint in this time of terrorists.

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on May 27, 2005 03:01 PM
61. Jimmie, you say: "However, you used the phrase '...advancing American interests...' How does that happen when you shoot your own toe in front of the world? ... how many terrorists or our enemies willingly question themselves or weaken their postures in front of us? Did the Japanese do this in WW2?"

No, the Japanese doubtless didn't do this, nor did the Nazis. Does that mean we should emulate them, or the Islamo-fascists? I would argue no. We don't make ourselves stronger or more effective by surrending our most precious American values.

A useful example comes to mind: During WW II Harry Truman vigorously investigated and publicized examples of war profiteering by contractors that were that era's equivalent of Halliburton. Some would say that made the U.S. lose face and look bad in the eyes of the world; after all, you certainly wouldn't see that sort of thing happening in Japan, Germany, or Saddam's Iraq. In reality, however, by exercising the freedoms of an open society, Truman helped make America stronger and more effective.

I wouldn't try to argue that every story that may cast a negative light on the U.S. is necessarily inherently useful, but freedom means taking the good with the bad. If as Americans we can't speak freely and honestly face the truth about ourselves and the world, how much is the "freedom" that W. so piously touts really worth? The truth can indeed make us free.

Posted by: Proud Progressive on May 27, 2005 10:24 PM
62. Mr. Trahant tries to defend Mr. Horsey's cartoon by saying of the uproar "We have an interpretation gap...We may never bridge the gap. Some of us will look at such cartoons, get the point and think of ways U.S. institutions can be made stronger. Others will look at the same sketch, get angry and demand repudiation."

No, Mr. Trahant, what we have is a "lack of truth gap" or a "political liar complex" or a "systemic lack of integrity" on the part of Misters Horsey and Trahant. The cartoon makes what may have happened appear as if it is commonplace.

Here's a cartoon that's much more truthful:

Mark Trahant is sitting at a table with David Horsey. In front of them is a large, bound book labeled “Lies We Tell (and get away with)”. Horsey says to Trahant, “What does it matter if my cartoon is the big lie, we’re not in the truth business?”

To which Mr. Trahant replies, “Yer right, Davey. Go cook up another one while I spread some lies about those who object to your cartoon.”

Two documented deaths are, indeed, a tragedy. A million would, as Stalin said, be a statistic. But Horsey’s cartoon makes it seem as if these deaths are habitual for the military—that several people are tortured to death every day as a part of the general policy of the military, not the exception. And therein is the lie. Where’s Mr. Horsey’s cartoon detailing the slaughter in Darfur? Or does he expect black Africans to behave that way? Or does he just not care?

How many insurgents and suspected combatants have been detained and questioned? Probably thousands have been held and questioned, if not tens of thousands. Even if you do not agree with the premise, the process, or the implementation of the interrogation process, this is a war which was first declared by al-Qaeda with the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane in the early 1990’s on American soil. And it is a war which came looking for us, found us, and to which we belatedly responded.

(Compiled in part from a private email sent by me to Mr. Trahant.)

Posted by: Kelly McGrew on May 28, 2005 05:06 PM
63. No, the Japanese doubtless didn't do this, nor did the Nazis. Does that mean we should emulate them, or the Islamo-fascists? I would argue no. We don't make ourselves stronger or more effective by surrending our most precious American values.

That's a pretty lame straw-man there progressive. We can easily do one (take the high road and resist the petty impulse to figuratively poke a pencil in the eye of one American against another American), without approaching the other arbitrarily censoring outrageous or contemptible speech).

It is one thing to "speak freely and honestly face the truth about ourselves and the world", it is another to shout fire in a theatre.

I wonder what horseys-ass will do when the two seattle rags go out of business?

(Maybe he can score a position at Little Nickel!)

Posted by: alphabet soup on May 28, 2005 05:50 PM
64. A. Soup sez: "It is one thing to 'speak freely and honestly face the truth about ourselves and the world', it is another to shout fire in a theatre."

I'm not sure whether the "fire in a theatre" analogy and the "outrageous and contemptible speech" you refer to is Newsweek's or Horsey's.

Newsweek ran a ONE PARAGRAPH item that ran into trouble because of sourcing, not necessarily factual accuruacy. (Subsequent reports from the FBI and others show that Newsweek was closer than not to the truth of the matter.) I agree with David Brooks' point, however, that we should be condemning the idiots that started and fanned the flames of the riots, not Newsweek.

Remember the fatwa that was issued by Ayatollah Khomeini against Salman Rushdie after the publication of "The Satanic Verses"? Adopting your logic, Soup, we should have joined puddingheaded Muslims around the world in condemning Rushdie, rather than the Ayatollah and his followers. Is this the course we should take? -- That we should grant the heckler a veto and not speak if we fear it might inflame some lunatic fringe sometime, somewhere? That's a pretty bloodless, cramped view of freedom.

As for Horsey, I don't quite know what to say to those who can't seem to grasp the idea of political satire. Lighten up, guys, don't be so damned literal-minded.

And for the record, Horsey has not one, but two Pulitzer Prizes.

Posted by: Proud Progressive on May 28, 2005 08:07 PM
65. I think some criticism of this war is in order. And to criticize the war makes you no less an American. Some people aspire to a better America.

Dave

Posted by: dave kees on May 29, 2005 03:09 AM
66. ProudP--
Points taken, again. We just won't ever agree on this. It's perhaps noble to air your (or your country's) criticisms and mistakes.

However, I do not feel that airing your laundry to the enemy is wise--especially kicking your own military in the groin. Enemies do not air their weaknesses to us. That is not emulating them, it's simple defense wisdom. Why give the ememy a chink in your armor? This is not a school debate team--it's real world terror.

To me, you pick your forums and battles. "Letting it all hang out" is great in a safe world or the privacy of a psyc's office, but on the REAL world stage, is is an indicator of your self-contempt, not self-reflection. I respect your view but strongly disagree. Happy Memorial Day.


Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on May 29, 2005 09:11 AM
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Posted by: , for on May 30, 2005 01:08 PM
68. I'm not sure whether the "fire in a theatre" analogy and the "outrageous and contemptible speech" you refer to is Newsweek's or Horsey's.

It is easily both - they are both disgusting displays that only toilet-drinking, America hating leftists would find no problem with.

Subsequent reports from the FBI and others show that Newsweek was closer than not to the truth of the matter.

This is false and to say otherwise is a lie.

I agree with David Brooks' point, however, that we should be condemning the idiots that started and fanned the flames of the riots, not Newsweek.

If David Brooks said that, then he is either misinformed, or is deliberately misleading and should be ashamed. The blame lies squarely with Newsweak.

Adopting your logic, Soup, we should have joined puddingheaded Muslims around the world in condemning Rushdie, rather than the Ayatollah and his followers. Is this the course we should take? -- That we should grant the heckler a veto and not speak if we fear it might inflame some lunatic fringe sometime, somewhere? That's a pretty bloodless, cramped view of freedom.

This is too stupid to speak to. Your response to my analogy is completely off the mark. Try again.

And for the record, Horsey has not one, but two Pulitzer Prizes.

Proving once again that Pulitzer prizes are less than worthless.......

Posted by: alphabet soup on May 31, 2005 10:58 AM
69.

That was th dumest caracture I've ever seen !

Posted by: camron midweld on October 10, 2005 09:05 PM
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