The election contest trial is really two trials in one.
On its face, of course, there's the legal trial. There's also the political trial, which is going on in parallel as a subtext to the legal trial, where each side is angling to influence public opinion.
I'm not a lawyer and I'm not qualified to assess how well the legal trial is going for either side. I'll only say that the rules are inherently designed to make it difficult for the petitioner.
I'm better equipped to remark on the political trial and I think the Republicans are doing much better there than the Democrats are doing --
Prevailing in the legal trial is a function of persuading the one trial judge within the constraints of statute and court rules. Prevailing in the political trial is function of appealing to the public on the basis of common sense justice and fairness. There doesn't have to be only one clear winner in the political trial. Doing particularly well in one trial can help in the other trial. But it's also possible for one party to prevail in the legal trial and do poorly in the political trial.
The Republicans are doing better in the political trial because their arguments dovetail with common sense. The Democrats moves are defensive and based on arcane procedural rules that sound to the average person like the Rules of Fizzbin. For example, I cannot say whether or not the Judge will accept the Republican allegation of fraud at this point or will admit the evidence of 875 more ballots than voters. But I think most normal people can understand that when government officials conspire to falsify a document, and the falsified document conceals that there were more ballots than voters, then it meets the common sense definition of fraud. I also think that most normal people understand that when the Democrat lawyer wants to exclude the 875 mystery ballots on the grounds that the Republicans don't have a list of the names of the people who cast them, then that is a ridiculous argument. These arguments add points to Republican political score, and subtracts points from the Democrat political score.
I also think that the Democrats are smart enough to know that a legal victory without a political victory is somewhat pyrrhic and that they must budget their political capital in pursuit of the legal victory. You have to wonder how confident they're feeling about their legal case if they blow so much political capital on an absurd argument to try to exclude those 875 mystery ballots.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at May 23, 2005 11:16 PM | Email ThisOh? That hasn't ever stopped you in the past, but your honesty in the here now is admittedly refreshing.
Posted by: Daniel K on May 24, 2005 12:03 AMIs it effective? It certainly seems so.
Is it something to be proud of? I'll let you decide.
Posted by: Daniel K on May 24, 2005 12:11 AMDave Johnson (political analyst and CEO of Stratigic Vision LLC, who has done the in-depth polling regarding this issue) was here to speak at Western Washington University, Monday. He covered the political battle pretty well in his talk. He said the Democrats began to lose it when they first suggested "cheery picking" which counties in which to do a hand recount...
...and they haven't recovered since. No governor has ever recovered once their approval rating has fallen below 40%.
He was also of the opinion that the Republicans will lose the court case, though...precedent being against them in the higher courts.
Posted by: Mark WWU on May 24, 2005 12:37 AMI enjoyed the information you shared in your post about Dave Johnson at WWU.
The first two paragraphs were great but you could have left out the third.
I am sure the Rossi team has done everything they could to have gotten this far. Let it go the course and trust that God is riding with Rossi and the Republicans and that it is his will to turn the Dem.’s upside down. I am hoping for Divine intervention and I bet the Dem.’s are praying real hard as well.
Posted by: 4pawz on May 24, 2005 01:15 AM
So, I don't think they are much worried about the political impact of the trial. They first want to win, with whatever arguments they need, and then they figure that people will forget or that they can spin the win into validation of the election of Gregoire. Of course, then they will paint the Republicans as being sore losers and willing to sacrifice democratic processes, etc ...
If they loose, of course, it's an entirely different story. Really, both sides need desperately to win, because the loser will be toast for at least the next 10 years.
Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on May 24, 2005 01:59 AMABSURDISTAN!!!
A new Country filled with LEFTIST PINHEADS and PENCIL-NECKED GEEKS who spend all their time creating self-validation groups aimed at validating their ABSURDITY!!!!!
Posted by: Mr. Cynical on May 24, 2005 05:46 AMABSURDISTAN!!!
A new Country filled with LEFTIST PINHEADS and PENCIL-NECKED GEEKS who spend all their time creating self-validation groups aimed at validating their ABSURDITY!!!!!
Posted by: Mr. Cynical on May 24, 2005 05:46 AMThe timestamp on this post is 11:16pm, a little over an hour before Goldstein steals the theme of the post for his own pathetic site:
The Shark: "The election contest trial is really two trials in one. On its face, of course, there's the legal trial. There's also the political trial, which is going on in parallel as a subtext to the legal trial, where each side is angling to influence public opinion."
Goldy: "But I do have one major observation from today’s proceedings, and that is that there are actually two different trials going on in Wenatchee: one is in a court of law, and the other is in the court of public opinion."
http://www.horsesass.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=b8712b73b5d9faa2c159a67405529511
Posted by: Greg on May 24, 2005 07:42 AM"In the court of public opinion, however, the GOP has already won. Since last November, the Republican Party has run an incredible public relations campaign to discredit the electoral system—particularly King County's—and to label the governor "Fraudoire." Polling data show that the PR campaign has helped Rossi and hurt Gregoire. The strength of the PR effort might even withstand a loss in court."
- Seattle Weekly, 5/18
Posted by: Ezra Meeker on May 24, 2005 08:03 AMThe good people of Washington won't forget how partisan operatives destroyed their confidence in elections.
Posted by: Jeff B. on May 24, 2005 08:21 AMOur society has the "constraints" of statutes and court rules to prevent candidates like Dino Rossi from stealing an election that he lost fair and square with lies and innuendo. Those "constraints" make a person back up what he claims with real evidence, instead of the BS manufactured by political consultants. It's a pity we don't have a civil cause of action for undermining the public's confidence in government with spin and lies. If we did, we could financially bankrupt the GOP to go along with its moral and ethical bankruptcy.
Posted by: Northern Coho on May 24, 2005 08:22 AMThe winner of this trial will be able to spin it to kingdom come.
If the democrats win the trial in Chelan, it's over for Republicans for the next 10 years. And, vice versa.
Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on May 24, 2005 08:23 AMBut last few weeks of hearings have provided R's liayers just making stuff up in court... no law or acknowledgment of facts, just making stuff up. And this is the core principle of R' behavior these days. To see it on TV in living color helps illustrate the fact. And the wankers best shots being nothing more than "Gregoire stole the election", "Gregoire's illegal governorship" (etc.) gets/is tiresome.
Yes, looks like R's losing on both counts.
And most sentient USAsians are well aware that whatever mistakes may have been make in Wa., they were mistakes. Which pales in order of magnitudes to R's massive malfeasance in Ohio. If folks really give a rip about election reform, that obviously is the place to start. I mean, thinking otherwise is akin to invading Iraq to kill ME terrorisim (eg. missing the mark), and we all know where that kind of stuff leads.
Wank On!!!
Posted by: JDM on May 24, 2005 08:29 AM
It's a pity that we don't have a civil cause of action for undermining the public's confidence in government with spin, and lies, and enacting public policy that erodes our nation and makes us weaker, and efforts to destroy our great country from within.
If we did, the Democratic Party would still be on the hook for paying us back for the Carter Presidency, let alone the eight years that Clinton fiddled his organ while Rome burned.
At this point, I don't know which will be extinct first - the Democratic Party or the Northern Coho. I suspect the fish has a better shot.
Posted by: Larry on May 24, 2005 08:32 AMI'm not so sure. The 'crats and the MSM have the credibility of Baghdad Bob. I think that there is an intuitive sense outside of moonbatia that KC cheated bigtime. Particularly amoung the "Reagan Democrat" element of the state. If the 'crats win, it will just increase the cynicism.
Posted by: Dogbert on May 24, 2005 08:34 AMPlease feel free to try again ;'}
Posted by: alphabet soup on May 24, 2005 09:06 AMThanks for the comments.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on May 24, 2005 09:07 AMincoherent, rambling, irrelevant, steaming pile,
(snip)
tired old toilet-drinker rhetoric
thanks for that well reasoned, articulate point by point knockdown!!! I hereby acknowledge your wanker credentials. Well done, Bravo... Here, have a bananna. (you didn't go to school in Kansas by an chance?)
It's so refreshing to stop by here every few months... it's a welcome reminder of my gratitude that God gave me a brain.
Have you been watching the proceedings? R's legal team has been embarrasing. My sincere, honest opinion is these guys are not expected by RNC to win anything, rather purpose is wanker training for principled rw bamboolzlement on another day.
This looks like a diaper run to me. Maybe these guys can be useful for Yoo-like torture "legal" interpretations down the road, huh?
Regarding Ohio... you can't be serious. On any level, whether illegal actions by Sec State, illegal recount procedures(eliminating observers), bizarre exit poll variances correlating w/+-5% Bush increase of poll only in Diebold/Sequoia precincts...
Anyway Alphy dude, here's hoping you can move up to Chicken Noodle in the years to come.
What have you been doing with that fruit?!!
That'll teach me to accept gifts from fruitbats!!
Also, when it comes to loons, I'm never serious.
Posted by: alphabet soup on May 24, 2005 01:44 PMRegardless, the facts remain:
- nearly every "fact" posited by Stepahn in last +- 6 weeks has been shot down by the courts, and obviously so. Much of this was advanced by Rossi's liawyers. Stephan's consistient assertions of "fact" have proven little more than slurs: there is no evidence of intent to defraud. NONE
- Ohio malfeasance is fact. There is no corralary to Washington State/King County... none. Ohio was deliberate, well planned in advance, with documented crimes. That state's Attny General has chosen to stonewall. The idea that -0- paper trail/accountability, not to mention the voting machine's manufacturers are sworn GWB loyalists and the only ones allowed remote access to voting totals during voting... it's a bit much. If there's ever going to be accord, this stuff will have to be acknowledged by you guyz. Period. Design and implement reliable, verifiable processes, let the chips fall and demand adults accept honest results. Continue these fixed bamboolzes, and sooner or later we're headed for civil war.
- As long as you guys fight with intent to win obscuring any widespread, determined effort to standardize a voting process these childish feuds are not only going to remain, they will intensify. A lot of people from other side are getting fed up w/this schoolyard bully stuff. It's getting beyond absurd, to the point where what are touted as "conservative" values are resulting in deficits going off the charts, a looming massive failure in Iraq, the elimination of US from So. American Economic planning, and near global mistrust of White House. Soc Security lies... it's a damn long list.
Results matter. And right now, results are so bad on so many fronts that the term "crisis of confidence" is on the tip of many tounges. It's time for the adults to return. Wake up.
What fact(s) "posited" (that's an awfully big word for a moron, JDM) by "Stepahn" (I'm taking a chance that you meant "Stefan") have been shown to have been "shot down"?
Have you pulled your fingers out of your nose long enough to notice the deposition of Nicole "Fraudulent Mail Ballot Report" Way?
Never mind. I apologize. Anyone who believes the crap that you spout is either demented or retarded (heck, in your case I would believe a combo!). Mama told me not to harass the handicapped. I don't know what came over me! Please go back to huffing your spray-paint (what's your favorite color?!) and stuffing foreign objects up your rectum and leave the heavy lifting to the adults. Oh, and be very careful that you don't get that "tounge" stuck somewhere it doesn't belong ;'}
Worry not,it will all be over soon......