May 13, 2005
"No New Gas Tax" filed

The No New Gas Tax Initiative has been filed.

Recent news items tell us why this initiative is needed more than ever: Those who get to spend our transportation taxes simply don't know what they're doing --

* Sound Transit admitted that they overestimated (by $2 billion ) the cost of an alternative to light rail.

But Sound Transit officials said the error was unintentional.
All of Sound Transit's multi-billion dollar errors are "unintentional".

* Sound Transit is blowing millions more on adding a second train to the shockingly empty "Everett-Seattle Sounder". After a $300 million capital cost, the Sounder carries a mere 150 round-trip commuters a day. Adding a train that leaves Everett at 6:10am isn't likely to make much of a dent in road congestion

“Sound Transit is all about providing options and alternatives to sitting in traffic for commuters,” said Sound Transit Board Chair and Pierce County Executive John Ladenburg.
Too bad Ladenburg doesn't give a whit how many millions of the people's tax dollars he's pissing away on "options" that hardly anybody opts for.

* State Rep. Ed Murray, chairman of the House Transportation Committee, and godfather of the gas tax bill, offers some very silly excuses for preserving the state's underperforming ferry monopoly, among them:

The Times believes the state should allow a private company to come in and run the passenger-only ferry service between Southworth and Seattle ("Disappointing delay to local ferry plans" editorial, April 28). I disagree. Consider this:

• The Southworth route is a profitable one, subsidizing the Vashon-Seattle route.

• Allowing a private company to "cherry-pick" this route will cause the state — the taxpayers — to have to subsidize the unprofitable routes at an even higher rate.

So the fair approach, Ed, is to force an arbitrary group of ferry riders to pay artificially high prices to keep prices artificially low for a different group? Yeah, whatever, dude. This is not a person who can be trusted to spend our transportation taxes fairly or prudently.

The "No New Gas Tax" Initiative is the best way we have today to say "NO" to the various clowns, like Christine Gregoire, John Ladenburg and Ed Murray, who are only mismanaging our transportation system.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at May 13, 2005 10:24 AM | Email This
Comments
1. It's no mystery what they are up to here.

They want the traffic to pile up so that people are FORCED into their socialist planned light rail, Sounder, and monorail system.

Other cities have done the same thing. For example, it is virtually impossible to get into Wash DC on a week day in your car. All of the roads in and out were intentionally choked starting back in the 70's. So, if you are a regular middle class person and work in DC, your only viable "option" is to take the Metro (the name of their subway).

Now, in truth, except for very, very crowded trains during rush hour, the DC area Metro is a pretty convenient system. It goes everywhere and it is very fast. A large portion of it is underground and nowhere does it stop and street lights, because it isn't built on roads like Seattle's light rail.

But, to accomplish that, the federal government spent massive amounts of money. The money that was spent was never fully accounted for, at least not publically, so it is not possible to say how much it actually cost. The construction of that system was tied in with national security and other issues.

Seattle can't match that. Federal funding for a city that thinks it is part of Canada will never be available in large amounts, and even if Seattle were the all-american city, the funding could never come anywhere close to the amount used to build the DC area Metro.

But, the totalitarians of the Banana Republic of Washington continue with their long term plan of limiting and removing options and trying to force everyone onto their central government planned "transportation options."

Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on May 13, 2005 10:44 AM
2. Amen! Preach it, brother!

some 'sound' economic analysis there, Stephan.

One of the key definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Even Skinner’s pigeons eventually ‘got it,’ so you have to wonder where recidivist leftists fall on the evolutionary scale. Not to mention the DSM.

Posted by: scott158 on May 13, 2005 10:50 AM
3. The flaw in Murray's argument is that car ferries carry both cars and people. If the Vashon pasenger only route was cancelled, people could ride the car ferry - as walk on passengers. Duh.+

Posted by: pbj on May 13, 2005 10:54 AM
4. Oh. Btw, DSM does not stand for "Democrat Socialist Mantra." In case you were wondering.

Posted by: scott158 on May 13, 2005 10:54 AM
5. I'm signed up to collect 500 of the 250,000 signatures.

We need to send a message to all of our government representatives at every level.

The message is that if we are going to be taxed, the money must be used wisely. Subsidizing mass transit for a very small number of Washingtonians while neglecting the obvious choke points of the freeways that are the only option for the vast majority of citizens, is UnSound policy.

We are going to stop the bureaucratic hemorrhage of our tax dollars.

Posted by: Jeff B. on May 13, 2005 10:58 AM
6. Let's make sure this initiative succeeds. I've had it with their sleight of hand tricks with this mountain of transportation money.

If more money is needed, they can reduce some of the social(ist) service program budgets throughout the state. Enough is enough.

Posted by: Mr. Grabbit on May 13, 2005 11:03 AM
7. Stefan and everyone

Good morning,

You know you can look at this initiative
and see how effective leadership makes all
the difference.Does anyone want to guess
who's behind this?


No its not chris vance infact he doesn't
even support it.Its not kirby wilbur or
john carlson.Yes they are in the for front
and a big help in getting done.But they
didn't start this.


What you have here is a man being a
leader and trying to make a difference.
Constrast that with chris vance who
masquerades as one on a daily basis.
Remember stefan Chris vance is the one
who praised the seven senators for
supporting the gas tax.



So who am I talking about?



Its none other than mark hulst.Thats right
and for the record he did not ask me to do
this.Between this initiative and Go Washington
because of mark the state gop survives.

I should also make clear that a run for
gop state chair in 2007 is not part of
this at all.Infact it is the furtherest
thing from marks mind right now.


I wish to point out that there are many
that have and are helping to spearhead all
of this.They can never be thanked enough
for all there hard work.



Posted by: phil spackman on May 13, 2005 11:10 AM
8. I thought Sound Transit wasn't getting any of the gas tax money.

Posted by: Christine G on May 13, 2005 11:13 AM
9. Thousands of "guvment" and union hack [Democrat] jobs and votes are riding on this tax. The Democrats will fight this to the death. [Atlas has Shrugged]

Posted by: JCH on May 13, 2005 11:18 AM
10. Thousands of "guvment" and union hack [Democrat] jobs and votes are riding on this tax. The Democrats will fight this to the death. [Atlas has Shrugged]

Posted by: JCH on May 13, 2005 11:19 AM
11. Thousands of "guvment" and union hack [Democrat] jobs and votes are riding on this tax. The Democrats will fight this to the death. [Atlas has Shrugged]

Posted by: JCH on May 13, 2005 11:20 AM
12. Hi JHC:

You can't be John Galt. He didn't have time to post on messageboards, and wouldn't use the word "guvment."

Posted by: Christine G. on May 13, 2005 11:21 AM
13. Mass Transit doesn't work here because of two things.

1. Geography (The biggest reason)

2. The dolts who designed and run what systems that are in place are, well I've said it: dolts. Apply some common sense and our transit systems could actually offer some alternatives.

It amazes me how some other cities that were planned, layed out in grids, and are more densely populated get compared to Seattle.

Oh yeah, the citzens in eastern WA, ONCE AGAIN, get to pay for Seattle's needs and desires.

Posted by: smoke on May 13, 2005 11:25 AM
14. Where's the initiative to attack the Bush Administration's energy policies?

You know, the ones that have cost us more than TEN TIMES the new gas tax and doesn't go to pay for anything useful of us consumers.

THAT'S the initiative I'll happily sign.

Posted by: Nelson on May 13, 2005 11:26 AM
15. Hey nelson,

long time no hear. I see you're still an imbecile. Well, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Posted by: Danny on May 13, 2005 11:28 AM
16. Sound Transit IS getting a chunk of the gas tax. They didn't publicize that at all during the session because they knew that "We need a bigger gas tax because Sound Transit needs more money" would not be seen as a major selling point!

That Sound Transit is getting several hundred million of this is reason enough right there to dump this tax. Outrageous!

Posted by: Michele on May 13, 2005 11:29 AM
17. The recent past of gutting 601 and the car tab mess is just that—the latest examples of unrestrained legislative largess at the public’s expense. Just one example from years ago is the flap over sales tax on food. How’s that for a “progressive” approach, using about the most blatantly regressive tax means possible?

My fervent prayer is that when the responsible adults re-assert themselves in this debacle, they make sure they keep track of where they stored the cans of “Raid” for safe keeping. I don’t know that one can completely eradicate cockroaches, and certainly due diligence is required to curtail these outbreaks.

Just get some of the forms in my hands. It’s not just about the money. It’s about holding failed public servants accountable.

And then give me candidates that can beat Kastama and Morrell. While you’re at it, how about a viable candidate against Smith in the 9th?

Posted by: scott158 on May 13, 2005 11:29 AM
18. Just to set the record straight:

I did not praise Republicans who voted for the gas tax increase.

I am not opposed to the initiative. The State Party has not yet taken a position on this initiative. We have a formal process we have to go through, culminating in a vote by either or Executive Board or State Committee, in order for us to take a formal position.

Posted by: Chris Vance on May 13, 2005 11:30 AM
19. It would be extremely cool to start a pool to guess the day that enough petitions are signed to get this on the ballot.

Perhaps a yahoo group sort of like march madness?

Any takers?

my guess is less than 3 weeks from the time petitions are mailed to gatherers.

Posted by: Andy on May 13, 2005 11:46 AM
20. Do you have a source for Sound Transit getting some of the gas tax. I don't think that would be fair.

I thought all the money was supposed to go to a defined list of projects.

Posted by: Christine G on May 13, 2005 11:46 AM
21. Christine G.......Issues concerning the voter fraud and gas taxes in Washington State, Milwaukee, and other Democrat controlled cities and states are right out of Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". The Democrat parasites [grasshoppers] are running the show, and the productive [private sector Republican tax payers] are, and should just.........leave. Let the welfare hacks, union thugs, and "guvment" workers tax each other. Then watch the chaos. I AM JOHN GALT!!!!!

Posted by: JCH on May 13, 2005 11:50 AM
22. ...and please. Don't feed the Nelson.

Like an alley cat, once you feed him, he just keeps coming back

Posted by: Andy on May 13, 2005 11:50 AM
23. Christine,

It's irrelevant whether the new gas tax money is directly earmarked for Sound Transit. Money is fungible. What's important is the total amounts of taxing and spending. If Sound Transit wasn't already wasting billions in existing taxes, we wouldn't have to raise new gas taxes in order to pay for the worthwhile projects.

Posted by: Stefan Sharkansky on May 13, 2005 11:50 AM
24. Nelson in his whiny voice typed: "Where's the initiative to attack the Bush Administration's energy policies?"

Dunno, Nelson. You want one, put the bong down and go start one. It's your right, and if you're that concerned about it go do it instead of expecting someone else to do it. Oh wait! You're a libber cradle to grave.

Posted by: MikeF on May 13, 2005 11:50 AM
25. Nelson's typical dem op of trying to change topic will not work. Gotta give him credit tho for being consistant.

Like most Liberals he fails to understand the motivation behind this initiative...it ain't just about the money.

Funny tho how everything always comes back to being the fault of President Bush. Just can't get over 2000 can they?

Posted by: BlueKnight on May 13, 2005 12:00 PM
26. Mass Transit doesn't work here because.... ... .. . instead of focusing on getting the most out of limited transportation the people driving the decision process are primarily focused on controlling peoples lives through making it inconvenient to live where they choose.

Their aim is to force you to live where they (urban planners) think it is best for you to live and they are doing it by manipulating the transportation system to achieve their aims.

They are, contrary to what they would have you believe, not nice people. They are nasty, controlling and narcissistic.

Any improvement to the lives of residents of Western Washington that comes of anything they are involved with will be an UNINTENDED consequence.

Posted by: JDH on May 13, 2005 12:00 PM
27. Why does the web site not give you the text of the initiative? Is it secret? How are people supposed to know what it is they're being asked to sign? I don't know about you, but I generally avoid signing blank checks.

Posted by: jsa on May 13, 2005 12:16 PM
28. I signed the initiative the first day it was put on online.
Repeat after me "I am mad as hell, and I am not going to take it any longer!"
Sorry, bad movie flashback.
Anyone that voted for this latest in a series of tax increases
should be voted out of office.

Posted by: otto on May 13, 2005 12:21 PM
29. Shark wrote, "It's irrelevant whether the new gas tax money is directly earmarked for Sound Transit. Money is fungible. What's important is the total amounts of taxing and spending. If Sound Transit wasn't already wasting billions in existing taxes, we wouldn't have to raise new gas taxes in order to pay for the worthwhile projects."

No, Shark, it is not irrelevant. Christine is asking a very relevant question.

This is not just a matter of "worthwhile" projects, they are critical projects. This city has rejected one project after another for a hundred years and we're all paying for the selfish lack of civic leadership and vision. The gas tax increase is nothing compared to the cost to our local economy the day the Viaduct pancakes and the 520 bridge sinks, not to mention the likelihood people will die should either of those things happen.

Will the gas tax pay for it all? No, but it will fund enough of these projects for them to become realities, rather than hopeless dreams, while at the same time addressing various needs statewide.

Posted by: Daniel K on May 13, 2005 12:25 PM
30. jsa-

As I understand it, until the title and text of the initiative have been approved at the state level (SOS I think), it can't be distributed. I think the review process is either underway or imminent.

Posted by: MikeF on May 13, 2005 12:25 PM
31. Chris Vance


This is what's wrong with your idea of what
a leader is.They don't sit around and wait
for things to happen.They make them happen.
This your excuse for just about everything that
ever happens politically.


Instead of waiting for someone to bring
the gas tax initiative to the state board.
You should have taken the lead and brought it to
them.A real leader tells those he leads
this is what I believe we should
support or what we should do.


What then happens more often than not
the others will follow. because there leader
believes in it.


Do really want to sit there and deny
that you praised those 7 republican
senators for supporting the gas tax.
We both know what you did.I will say
it again I have the letter in my possesion
where you defended these 7 senators.
anyone that would like a copy please
just ask me.


Again ladies and gentleman contrast
this with what mark hulst is doing.
Going out and trying to get things
done.Or sitting around waiting for
things to happen like you are sir.

Posted by: phil spackman on May 13, 2005 12:26 PM
32. jsa,
There is the problem, Christine Gregoire and the Democrat liberals believe YOU are a blank check provider. To stop that spending spree at our expense we have a No New Gas Tax Initiative filed. Yes by all means read it first. I will.

Posted by: Son of Liberty on May 13, 2005 12:36 PM
33. Hi Stefan:

Thanks for the reply, but I don't think that money is "fungible" with regard to government, generally. Money is raised and earmarked for particular purposes. I thought Sound Transit had its own funding sources, and the vast majority of its budget wasn't paid out of general transportation dollars.

In the budget highlights, I see $387 million going to rail, but I can't tell the source - or is this just the general transportation fund?

http://leap.leg.wa.gov/leap/Budget/Detail/2005/st0507highlights0420.pdf

Posted by: Christine G on May 13, 2005 12:41 PM
34. Daniel K,
I think you miss the point. I will not argue the value of the projects. The method of funding them is dishonest and vile. The legislators that chose the method used of ramming an incomplete plan through and marking it "emergency" disqualifies them all for the positions they are in. They have one mandate - Represent the people. They categorically rejected that duty. This effort is to stop the results of their actions until we can replace them with REPRESENTATIVES of the "people".

Another alternative would be to hold another party, patterned after the one using tea, but this time using asphalt. The danger would be that some of the asphalt might end up being used in getting the current officials stoned in a way they aren't used to.

Posted by: MikeFedUp on May 13, 2005 12:43 PM
35. Bravo phil spackman,
Well said. Mr Chris Vance, you are a sad example of what a party official now days passes for. You are not a leader, you have no spine to lead. You have no guts to take a stand. No ideas to stand on. Please leave town ASAP. We have work to do.

Posted by: Son of Liberty on May 13, 2005 12:46 PM
36. Christine,

You said...

Money is raised and earmarked for particular purposes.

I'm sorry, but private enterprise raises money. Taxation is parasitic.

Posted by: Mr. Grabbit on May 13, 2005 12:53 PM
37. This is one of the great misconceptions of my job. The WSRP is comprised of 117 people elected by our grassroots PCOs. Those 117 people elect officers, including me, and adopt rules and bylaws. Our rules lay out a process we have to follow in order to endorse an initiative. We have not yet taken a position on this initiative.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Posted by: Chris Vance on May 13, 2005 01:01 PM
38. Hi Mr. Grabbit:

Whether it is parasitic or not, it raises money.

Posted by: Christine G on May 13, 2005 01:01 PM
39. "It's irrelevant whether the new gas tax money is directly earmarked for Sound Transit. Money is fungible."

Thanks for pointing that out Stefan. This is something that I always say and it is amazing how many people don't understand this simple fact.

Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on May 13, 2005 01:04 PM
40. Gas tax money can't be used for Sound Transit. That's why fees got raised.

Posted by: South County on May 13, 2005 01:08 PM
41. Chris Vance,
Just wanted to make this clear, is it any wonder why people lost faith in their elected officials and party leaders with answers like that.
God bless Stefan Sharkansky for what he and the other bloggers here have done. History is being made right here and now with the Sharks investigations into this stolen election and you give us 'Committee Talk'BS.
Just wanted to make that clear.

Posted by: Son of Liberty on May 13, 2005 01:12 PM
42. Mr. Vance - You should not be surprised at the reception you have received here from Phil Spackman and Son of Liberty. You're only as popular as your last success - and recently you've laid out nothing but a path of failure - after which your supporters will turn on you.

But that's politics - don't you just love it.

Posted by: Daniel K on May 13, 2005 01:14 PM
43. Yes, we need to something about transportation around here, but this isn't it. It's like getting someone to build you a house, and then takes your money without telling you what the house design is or how much it's really going to cost.

Hopefully everyone around here will realize this is the same rope-a-dope that was used to get Sound Transit passed. No specific plan, no final cost. But "we have to do something" is what gets you Sound Transit and the giant "sucking sound" of our money headed down the bus tunnel.

Posted by: Bubbasaurus on May 13, 2005 01:15 PM
44. If the road money was spent on sound transit and then taxes had to be raised to replace that money, how is that not raising taxes for sound transit?

Under the state's logic, 70% of our income still goes into our own bank accounts after taxes- this is *COSTING* the state an average of 50k a year per tax payer. We MUST work to plug those leaks!

Posted by: Andy on May 13, 2005 01:17 PM
45. Christine G

FYI - the government takes our money from us. To raise money implies that it is asked for and voluntarily pledged. If you don't think that government takes your money - try not paying your taxes.

Posted by: Jeffro on May 13, 2005 01:19 PM
46. Christine asked, "In the budget highlights, I see $387 million going to rail, but I can't tell the source - or is this just the general transportation fund?"

I believe that this is related to expenditures related to freight/commerce lines.

Posted by: Daniel K on May 13, 2005 01:26 PM
47. Chris Vance

Its that kind of a response that convinces
me you have no idea what an effective leader
is.You are the leader of the republican party
in this state sir.


You honestly believe you need to wait for 116
other people to tell you if somethings a good
idea.This is amazing.Is it any wonder why
others are doing the job your not.

Posted by: phil spackman on May 13, 2005 01:28 PM
48. Christine - I believe this document explains the breakdown in much greater detail: http://hdc.leg.wa.gov/issues/transportation/2005_transpo_summary_final.pdf

Posted by: Daniel K on May 13, 2005 01:30 PM
49. Not to pig-pile on the party chairman, but there are a few valid points being made here.

Those of us in the grassroots don't want the party to get too far away from us. We want to see some enthusiasm and bold leadership.

We want to see our party take loud and clear stands on issues. We want to see "win-able" candidates run (and supported) in critical races. And we want to see those who betrayed the party on this gas tax (such as my own rep. Glenn Anderson from the 5th district) held accountable.

I know that my mother personally sent a note to Chris Vance offering a donation for the Rossi legal battle. The only stipulation was that it be used specifically for the legal contest. She did not want to see it fall into the hands of Dan Brady or his bungling ilk within the party. She is still waiting (after a few weeks) for a response. I can all but guarantee you that Paul Berendt would have personally answered the same letter had it been sent to him.

While I don't want my party chairman to be a wimpy crybaby, you have to admit that Berendt would probably give up a kidney for his cause. He doesn't take time to put his feet up on the desk and hobnob with the elite. He is too busy going on opposing talk radio shows, crying on demand for cameras and energizing his party.

We deserve no less.

Posted by: Mr. Grabbit on May 13, 2005 01:33 PM
50. Andy - Holy crap! The state is giving away $150,000,000,000 of state money every year!

Posted by: Dogbert on May 13, 2005 01:38 PM
51. Daniel K

For the record I have never been a supporter
Of chris vance.This isn't about his failures
as a leader.I have a problem with anyone who's so
desperate keep there power that they malign
there opponents without outright falsehoods


To make it even worse the use people like
Dino Rossi and Stefan Sharkansky to unknowingly
do there dirty work for them.People like that
shouldn't lead anyone.

Posted by: phil spackman on May 13, 2005 01:38 PM
52. Phil - Putting aside the now tedious debate over the Party Chair, Vance's point is there are by-laws of the Party that define how, when, and by whose authority certain actions are taken...such as the party endorsing initiatives.

The Chair, whomever it is, can't just say "golly gee, I like this, here's the Party's stamp of approval." If he, or any other Chair were to act in such a manner, the Executive Board and/or the State Committee would can him. That process actually protects the "grassroots" cited in this comment stream from the errant actions of a potentially out-of-touch Chair.

Posted by: Eric Earling on May 13, 2005 01:44 PM
53. Chris Vance,
One more thing. The people of Washington State thirst for a leader. We think we see that in Dino Rossi. It maybe a false hope if the party machine gets to control his ideas and we are back to square one again. But the point is we would not be in this mess if we had a strong leader, not committees afraid to take a stand.
You know, lead or get out of the way.

Posted by: Son of Liberty on May 13, 2005 01:46 PM
54. Phil wrote "For the record I have never been a supporter Of chris vance."

I stand corrected - and I can completely understand.

Posted by: Daniel K on May 13, 2005 01:46 PM
55. Eric

I never said That the party leader should
just rubber stamp anything.What I was saying was
they should take the lead.Do you really think
eric that a of leader of any organization.That
if he or she took an idea or issue to its board
members.and did so because they passionately
believe in it.That the majority of the board
wouldn't go along with it?


That's all I am saying here.This is what good
leader does.

Posted by: phil spackman on May 13, 2005 01:56 PM
56. I've volunteered to collect signatures, and I'm planning on doing so at the gas stations in my neighborhood.

Can't think of a better place to collect signatures than right at the gas pump :-)

Posted by: Ed on May 13, 2005 01:58 PM
57. Phil - I don't disagree with that. Though it seems Vance is taking heat for not coming out sooner against the gas tax when in fairness, it is possible he has a strong position on the issue which he has communicated to the Executive Board.

Given that some Republicans in the Legislature voted for the package, especially Finkbeiner, it would seem especially inappropriate for Vance to speak forcefully in public on the issue until the Board has made its decision, after hearing from Vance...and regardless of whether you love or hate the guy, he does make his opinions known.

Posted by: Eric Earling on May 13, 2005 02:02 PM
58. So much s***, so little time. And thank the gods for Daniel K. Only a true kool aid drinker can claim that these projects in Seattle are "critical." It's bs and you know it.

If the knowitalls in KC and Olympia actually pulled their heads out of their collective arses, they'd realize what a patchwork quilt Sound area transportation really is. It would take real planners years to begin to fix the mess.

And just think of how much $$ has been wasted on toys like light rail, the ferry system, moronrail, and carpool lanes.

Posted by: Danny on May 13, 2005 02:18 PM
59. I know I'm going to regret this.

1. If the election contest is not proof of the State Party's willingness (and mine) to boldly fight for our cause, I'm not sure what else I can possible do to make some people happy.

2. The issue on the gas tax is very simple: the Chairman doesn't have the authority under the bylaws to committ the Party to a position on an initiative without a vote of the Executive Board or State Committee. Our next meeting is June 3rd and 4th. I have no idea why that is hard to understand.

Posted by: Chris Vance on May 13, 2005 02:26 PM
60. Jeffro:

The word "raised" implies no such thing.

The most conservative individuals on the planet refer to "raising" and "lowering" taxes. My dictionary says "raise" means "to gather together, collect" as in "raising money."

I'm more interested in this fungible money concept. If the taxes are earmarked, and spent in proportion to the the earmarking, how does that make it fungible?

Posted by: Christine G on May 13, 2005 02:30 PM
61. OK,

Now phil, leave well enough alone. Chris, go have a cold one or three. Giant's Causeway in Renton is a great "joint" to just relax. (tho they are IRA supporters, I think)

Posted by: Danny on May 13, 2005 02:34 PM
62. Danny said, "If the knowitalls in KC and Olympia actually pulled their heads out of their collective arses, they'd realize what a patchwork quilt Sound area transportation really is."

Gee Danny, I wonder why that is. Couldn't be due to the fact the legislature can't pass a bill to fund transportation plans without a misguided, ill conceived initiative killing it, could it?

"It would take real planners years to begin to fix the mess."

Real planners can't even begin to fix the mess when the funding needed is not being made available. If there is a mess here start laying the blame on Tim Eyman's (and his ilk's) vigilante anti-tax initiatives.

Posted by: Daniel K on May 13, 2005 02:34 PM
63. I will believe you're serious, Daniel K, when you acknowledge what a complete and total waste of money the "toys" have turned out to be. And if not that, then let Seattle pay for it's mess.

Posted by: Danny on May 13, 2005 02:36 PM
64. Eric

He didn't seem have any trouble defending
finkbeiner or those other senators
when they voted for it. Vance was pretty
forceful about doing that.


Yeah he makes his opinions known
alright.The problem is they can
change from day to day.


You don't believe me I will give you
an example.I seem to remember his threats
to fine reed davis for going after george
nethercutt on the issues.Contrast that now
with favorite son Reagan Dunn.Mr Dunn has
made some attacks on steve hammond's personal
Character.


I dont here chris vance or anyone else making
those same threats to Reagan Dunn.Yeah I know
its a county race.But it shouldn't matter,

Posted by: phil spackman on May 13, 2005 02:39 PM
65. Danny said, "I will believe you're serious, Daniel K, when you acknowledge what a complete and total waste of money the "toys" have turned out to be. And if not that, then let Seattle pay for it's mess."

While indeed Seattle is paying for some of the "toys" you are probably referring to, it is actually regrettable that although the light rail and monorail systems will benefit many people who live in the area, but outside Seattle, these projects don't receive more funding from all of King County citizens. Leaving everything up to Seattleites has historically been a recipe for nothing ever getting done.

What I will say is that it is unfortunate that the monorail project bidding and contracting has been reduced to just the one main bidder, and that the light rail project does not extend out to the airport - although I understand that the plans are now there for that to happen a few years after it opens.

The fact is Seattle lacks good public transportation and has serious road infrastructure problems. I was recently in Boston and was able to commute from the airport to a far southern suburb entirely via the "T" and commuter train system for a total of $5. One day hopefully such a trip will be possible here.

Posted by: Daniel K on May 13, 2005 02:54 PM
66. Christine G,

When money is "earmarked" from one method of tax, it frees up "general" money that would/could have been spent on that project for which the new tax is being levied. With the general funds being freed up, they go and spend on their pet projects.

It is like the Medic One tax. That should be one of the priorities of government and paid for from general funds. So they use scare tactics to get people to vote for the tax. Now the general funds can be used for pet projects, turning the Medic One tax into a pet project tax.

Posted by: Fred on May 13, 2005 03:01 PM
67. Mr. Chairman,
I fully understand the protocol by which our party runs. I respect that you, speaking for the party, are restrained from supporting the initiative. Will you step out of the chairmanship a moment and tell the readers what you, Chris Vance, the individual, think and if you support it?

Jim L
PS: I would also like to hear from the chairman, via email if you like, why Finkbiner, Swecker et al, gave cover to the dems and voted for 6103 in the first place. Had they not, this would be moot in its intirety.

Posted by: Jim L on May 13, 2005 03:02 PM
68. Democrat or Republican. Doesn't really matter if an issue is right or wrong. Political Correctness trumps everything.

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
(Edmund Burke)

Posted by: MikeF on May 13, 2005 03:23 PM
69. Chris,
"next meeting is June 3rd and 4th",
That is not hard to understand but these issues are too important to wait for the full assembly of a committee or the board to take a stand. That is the epitome of the failing of bureaocracy to perpetuate freedom when that freedom is under constant attack. Chris, we are in a battle for freedom right here in Washington State! Get the generals together and start acting like you are part of the war. Your constituents are being attacked!!!!!!!

Mike

Posted by: MikeFedUp on May 13, 2005 04:18 PM
70. DanielK,

Do you really believe that $5 covered the entire cost of that trip in Boston? Are you really that stupid??? Where do you think the rest of the money to operate that system comes from, the tooth fairy???

Posted by: pbj on May 13, 2005 04:42 PM
71. People talk about "road congestion" and automatically think I-5, I-90, I-405, 520 etc. Hmmm, ever just drive around your local neighborhood... be it Seattle or Redmond? What do you see... cars everywhere. People everywhere. It's all a huge mess because there are just too dang many people living here... and that's NOT going to change, it's only going to get worse.

I live up on the Sammamish Plateau, and the traffic between Sammamish and Redmond is horrible. Yes, the state is attempting to address the problem by widening SR-202, but why does it take soooooo long... years of studies, years to design, years to purchase right of way and years to construct? The DOT works like crazy for awhile, then the project just sits while they "take a break." It's all very frustrating.

This "emergency" gas tax is a crock. If it's such an emergency why does 520 not get a dime until 2013? Probably because they'll be fighting over the design for another 8 friggin years! Instead of "show me the money" I say "show me the design"... THEN you'll get the money.

Posted by: Tucker on May 13, 2005 04:45 PM
72. "Where's the initiative to attack the Bush Administration's energy policies?

You know, the ones that have cost us more than TEN TIMES the new gas tax and doesn't go to pay for anything useful of us consumers.

THAT'S the initiative I'll happily sign."

Nelson - care to back that up with some proof or are you just pulling things out of your butt again?

Posted by: pbj on May 13, 2005 04:46 PM
73. It seems to me that leadership, wrt state party chair is less about voicing personal opinions in the public sector like a populist rable rouser and more about framing and shaping the ENTIRE party to move in a paritcular direction. A person who would step up and "commit" the party to a particular direction without garnering support from the members is one who is likely never to be placed in the position of "leader" within such an organization. People like Sharkanski, or Calrson, or Wilbur are unfettered by institutional inertia in most cases and can be quick to start or join a populist movement. Those *representing* large numbers of people for whom they speak are not so free. Rather, they must rally those people to the cause first, before they can step up and make public pronouncements. It seems to me that you need to judge their leadership by how adept they are in rallying the party members and how successful they are in picking and choosing the battles to fight and the long term strength of the party.

Winning ONE battle is not their goal if it means long term loss of the war. In some cases, that is what might be said is occuring to the Democratic party today. They managed to force a Governorship, and to cram down their pet legislation, but if it means that they ultimately lose the Governorship and lose seats in the legisalture due to public response, then they misplayed their hand and their short-term victory will become a long-term defeat.

Posted by: Eyago on May 13, 2005 04:59 PM
74. Daniel K: You are totally missing some points here. The legislature passed a joke bill on departmental audits. This bill will not tell us who in WA Gov't is wasting our taxed dollars. Also, it's the Seattle and King County idiots who are the real one responsible for the Seattle area transportation issues. Isn't the KCC a sping board for the governor? Nuff Said!!!

So when performance audits are correctly performed to everyone's satisfaction, legislative bills fully describe projects, and "emergency" emergency bills are correctly identified, the public will "spank" the Olympian monkeys until they understand we are fed up. Get it?

Pudster

Posted by: Puddybud on May 13, 2005 05:02 PM
75. pbj wrote, "Do you really believe that $5 covered the entire cost of that trip in Boston? Are you really that stupid???"

You're correct - I made a mistake. It was actually $4.75.

"Where do you think the rest of the money to operate that system comes from, the tooth fairy???"

It came from tax payers. Thanks for helping me make my point.

Posted by: Daniel K on May 13, 2005 05:12 PM
76. Eyago,
Though I understand the logic, I don't buy the line. Chris Vance knows full well the republican party, save a few RINO incumbents support this initiative. your statement, and I qoute

"They managed to force a Governorship, and to cram down their pet legislation, but if it means that they ultimately lose the Governorship and lose seats in the legisalture due to public response, then they misplayed their hand and their short-term victory will become a long-term defeat."

Is short sighted, we may very well get a new election for the Governor, Dino has kept his head down, acted respectfully, and not jumped in front of the media to make his case. He has let the party and constituents speak much louder than he ever could. This is a good thing. However, when election time comes around, those seats that will be lost may not just be on the left side of the aisle. There needs to be a come uppins for the lack of leadership in the house and senate and those who thought their seats were secure and provided cover for the Dems that were given an out by trading places with them, better have their stories straight cause they are as much to blame for this gas hike, fee hike, and phony emergency bill passing as any democrat in the legislature.
I for one am tired of the lack of integrity the full house and senate possess and would not give a tinkers damn if the whole 147 of em lost their jobs.
Anybody on my side of the aisle knows where to find me. I aint ducking anything

Posted by: Jim L on May 13, 2005 05:19 PM
77. The bottom line is that you can sign, sign and sign more and more intiatives...but if you don't change the representatives in Olympia it will always be more of the same.

We must start electing Republicans!!!

Posted by: No Phony's Allowed on May 13, 2005 05:35 PM
78. "We must start electing Republicans!!!" Ones who vote like Republicans!

Posted by: Republcan In Exile on May 13, 2005 06:39 PM
79. Dittos to Mr. Grabbit! You really should think of running for an elected office. We need more fiscally conservative, morally aligned, patriots in the cut of Nixon, Reagan, Bush1 and Bush2 to step up in WA arena.

Posted by: Elvis is the King County on May 13, 2005 07:41 PM
80. Republican in Exile you say "We must start electing Republicans!!!" Ones who vote like Republicans!

Right on the money! Let's keep a close watch on what happens to our Republican Steve Hammond, King County Councilman, when the Republican Leadership puts him through the gristmill with Reagan Dunn during the caucus next Thursday. Why couldn't a strongly represented party leadership put Reagan Dunn in the race against Jane Hague to shore up a weakness of a Republican who consistently votes like a Democrat? Where is the strategy and marching orders that a party chairman should hold?
How can Republicans gain ground if the leaders don't position themselves for strength in simple local elections?

Posted by: Elvis is the King County on May 13, 2005 08:00 PM
81. Elvis

To answer your question jane hague is an old
dunn family friend. there was never any chance
reagan was going run against her.As far as the
king county gop chairman he and the rest of the
leadership are so in the tank for dunn that it
doesnt matter to them about hague.


These people have ran a once great county
party into the ground.For more info read
my column at rightofseattle.blogspot.com
I hope everyone that is participating in
next weeks cacuses will read it.



Posted by: phil spackman on May 13, 2005 08:12 PM
82. Phil, Mr. Grabbit (the greedy rabbit), and Elvis,
Wow . . . grandma has been out of town all day, missing all of these outstanding posts. I agree with all of you. I don't know Mr. Vance personally, but he seems like a nice enough guy. We all know what happens to nice enough guys from time to time, though. I think we would all like to see him become bold and fiercely aggressive. Why can't he call an emergency Executive Board meeting? Of course he can, and he should. I don't know of any industry trade association that would let time scoot by in a crisis, waiting for the appointed board meeting date. It would be an emergency teleconference, on a moment's notice. End of story.

Elvis, thanks for raising the question re Dunn vs. Hague. I found the response interesting. I think Reagan Dunn is awesome, not to mention more gorgeous than Shephard Smith. By the same token, I am very impressed with Hammond. What a deadly combo. Friendships and favoritism should be parked at the curb when so much is at stake.

Elvis . . . good point about Mr. Grabbit. He's extremely articulate with a great sense of humor in his writing, and he is deadly "right on". He appears to be extremely dedicated to the cause, knowledgeable about the issues, and he seems to have a fire in his belly. Ping him and see if he is interested! I believe he said he lives in the 5th, and he would have voted "NO" on the gas tax. Hmmm. How about you? Have you ever considered politics? You seem to know your way around the issues, too.

Posted by: lksimstrailgrammy on May 13, 2005 09:07 PM
83. When we get signatures for the inititive I assume it will be okay if a lot of the people we get to sign it list their addresses as Post Office Boxes, Courthouses, etc.

We won't be using any disenfranchising practices like verifying that the signers are residents of WA or the US will we? I wouldn't want anyone to be too intimidated to sign.

I assume if signers make any marks on the inititive sheet we can take this as their signature and clarify their signatures ourselves.

My grandparents have been gone for quite some time but I assume I can count on their support. That's okay isn't it?

I think we've got this tackled. Put me down as being willing to collect several thousand signatures. If that isn't enough put me down for whatever is needed as long as after the official tally we get to to re-canvass during the re-count to verify the numbers. I might need a little help though if I come down with writer's cramp.

Guess this wouldn't work if we can't rely on the Dean Team to do the counting and signature checking, but if so I think we're all set!

Posted by: davmicro on May 13, 2005 11:53 PM
84. So Chris Vance himself posts things on here. Whyizit the guy can't even win his own district yet he gets to be the chair of the state party? I think it's part of that "never mind the results, it's the proceedure we go through to get here that keeps him there" mentality. Kiss the right behinds and he gets to stay there. Amazing.

Posted by: PC on May 14, 2005 12:10 AM
85. Well I have aired all the dirty laundry I care to at this point. I don't see any need to feed the jackasses any more.
Chris was right about one thing, that being the part when he said he knew he would regret posting.

Posted by: Jim L on May 14, 2005 01:01 AM
86. Chris

I continually vote and work for the election of Republicans in this state. Republicans should be for cutting taxes. They threatened Christine and the democrats that they would not allow both a 12% increase in government spending and a massive gas tax increase. In the end the republicans acted like democrats and helped this legeslature get everything it wanted. These are not republicans I can either give to or ever support. You are the supposed leader, and yet you did not seem to have to have the power to stop their blasting of I 601, new taxes, California car emmissions, all and I do mean all meaning higher and higher taxes for us all. I might as well vote and donate to democrats. I know what I am getting then and will not be as disgusted as I currently am at the republicans in this state. They fold and always go along with new taxes!

Posted by: GS on May 14, 2005 01:03 AM
87. ...Until all of us in Washington State are living in mud huts, riding bikes/buses/trains to work and giving 90% of our payroll checks to Olympia....Then they will be happy?...NOT!

Posted by: Route101 on May 14, 2005 07:15 AM
88. Christine G and Daniel K.

My read of the budget for the new, dedicated rail runs to Portland and Vancouver BC will have to be run by some agency. Sound Transit is the agency that would most likely pick up the responsibility.

Argument 1. General/Gas tax money is flowing directly to Sound Transit. True.

Argument 2. The two new runs weren't in the original scope, so this tax money isn't funding Sound Transit on their promis. Also true.

The scam continues....

Use general fund to build/repair roads
Shift general fund expenditures to higher property taxes
Keep the higher property taxes, shift expenditures to higher gas taxes.
Keep the higher general fund taxes, the higher gas taxes, and shift to 'tolling' to pay for roads.

It's a scam. Get the lobster used to the heat, shift the attention and turn it up more.


And, Mr. Vance, please understand that you are welcome to designate and pick your party candidates in any fashion you choose, if you are paying for it. The moment that my tax money goes to pay for a primary, your organization's 'individual' rights should be subordinate to the voters right to choose whom they desire for office. It's sad that we are subjected to the same tyranny and attempt at monocracy from both of the major political parties.

Posted by: Patches Pal on May 14, 2005 07:19 PM
89. Last word on this...

I don't know about you but I am tired of being screwed over by the Democrat Liberals in power, and I don't need the Republicans sitting back and saying "I'm not sure what else I can possible do"....?? CV.
Its like being gang raped by both parties.
Think about this Chris Vance, if the Former Attorney General Christine Gregoire wins and goes on her power hungery taxing way, what do you think the firestorm of anger towards you and the elected Republican politians in this state will be like? Think about that Mr. Vance.

Posted by: Son of Liberty on May 14, 2005 09:29 PM
90. I will say that I absolutly will not donate one cent to the Republican party in this state after this legislative session. I had hope that they were taking a stand on these massive tax increases. But they did nothing, nothing at all! So we the people, will stand up and fight these raises, and we will win. I personally am so ticked off I will be out with the initiatives the day they arrive, and I expect people will flock to sign them. This Gas Tax will not survive the scorn of the citizens of this state. We will have the last dance!

Posted by: GS on May 15, 2005 01:10 AM
91. Since many have weighed in on the maneuvering between Reagan Dunn and Steve Hammond - here's mine - I like them both, but Hammond should not get ousted from his district. Why in the world did Reagan Dunn get pitted against Steve Hammond, instead of say against Jane Hague ?

Think about it, both Hammond and Dunn would be a stronger voice than Hague - so I'd say that the King County Republican Party has some splaining to do here. Seems like some knee-jerk reaction occurred before the big picture was considered.

Posted by: KS on May 15, 2005 09:30 PM
92. This whole initiative is a huge waste of time. It will never make the ballot. Its just about promoting KVI - and helping to boost it from its down in the dumps ratings.

Can we just build the damn roads and rails and get on with it?

Stefan's knee jerk spleening won't solve a single problem. When he produces solutions, let's listen.

Until then, let's get on with it.

Posted by: todd on May 20, 2005 08:04 AM
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