King County Elections finally gave me a version of an Absentee Ballot Audit Trail yesterday afternoon. The purpose of the audit trail is to account for all absentee ballots that are issued. Sadly, the file I was given is short by thousands.
Conclusion: Either they never kept a complete audit trail (thus violating WAC 434-240-270) or the complete audit trail would prove that the ballot count was way off (as suggested by the credit counts and the batch slips).
Whether they're unwilling or unable, King County won't release a reasonable accounting for its ballots. We have absolutely no reason to believe that the outcome of the ballot count accurately reflected the votes that were submitted.
I have other projects this weekend. More on this later.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at April 16, 2005 08:59 AM | Email ThisYou are clearly an expert in the 2004 King County election procedures and rules within the meaning of Evidence Rule 702: "If scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will assist the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue, a witness qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education, may testify thereto in the form of an opinion or otherwise."
Posted by: Gary A. Preble on April 16, 2005 10:11 AMKeep up the heat on John McKay, US Attorney to call a GRAND JURY and sieze the elections materials.
John.McKay@usdoj.gov
Posted by: Norm on April 16, 2005 10:11 AM-----------------------------------------------
Each county auditor shall maintain an audit trail with respect to the processing of absentee ballots ........
-----------------------------------------------
and:
-----------------------------------------------
(7) A reconciliation that all absentee ballots counted plus all absentee ballots rejected is equal to the total number of absentee ballots received.
-----------------------------------------------
"Shall maintain" and "is equal to" means this is not optional, not ambiguous, and not subject to "interpretation"; i.e.: Stefan is right:
Either there was a clear-cut violation of the law, or the full and complete absentee audit trail would finally and fully confirm that "Emperor Sims" and his legions have no clothes (of course we already know that; this just piles it higher and deeper).
Methow Ken
It was obvious to me from the beginning that these 2 clowns knew things were not processed according to their own policy's and procedures OR even State Law. Rather than admit it, Abbott & Costello arrogantly thought they could bluff their way thru this debacle because after all....Weird Al Yankovic lookalike Logan IS THE NATIONALLY RECOGINIZED ELECTION OFFICIAL (according to Don Ron Sims King).
They underestimated the publics burning desire to understand and get to the truth.
Now Dork#1 and Dork#2 must face the music.
It won't be pretty.
LOL
Snuffy
Posted by: snuffy on April 16, 2005 10:40 AMMaybe you can post an example of (1) a correctly processed absentee ballot that was accepted and validated, (2) an apparently correctly processed absentee ballot that was rejected for some reason or another, and (3) various types of incorrectly processed absentee ballots.
Posted by: Richard Pope on April 16, 2005 10:57 AMOne has to wonder if the timing of the Rossi-challenge depositions on Monday, was the final straw where in they attempted to "cook the books" so they would add up just plain ran out of time and so they gave you what they had.
I do suspect that is the case. I also suspect that since mid January various King County officials have been trying and trying to to figure out ways to manipulate the numbers such that the results would look plausable.
I would wager that there have been some fairly heated discussion among top democrats in King County this week having to do with the mess they now have to admit the election was.
Coming to that conclusion was probably why a week ago some King County elections staff were discipined and Sims decided on a "blue-ribbon whitewash committee" investigation.
It is going to be very interesting to see what top Democrats in this state have to say if the judicial branch tosses the "governor" out. I expect that the attempts at spin will be outrageous.
It would not surprise me to hear some Democrats claim that the Bush administration used aliens from Area 51 to resurect the dead into voting and to used time travel so that mulltiple votes by the same person could occur.
Posted by: Bob on April 16, 2005 11:02 AMFor clarification on this, refer to DocBenton. He is one of the legions of liberal attorneys who can turn anything--no matter how un-ambiguous and clear--into an argument of the absurd. For liberals, chutzpah and repudiation of the obvious have become the order of the day to an extent where logic is no longer necessary, and that is part of why many of us are astonished at how they willingly pretend to support such unsupportable contentions.
Your points are well-taken, especially because it appears that we may be presenting our case to a sane (i.e. conservative) judge. However don’t bother wasting any effort on the idea that any of the leadership on the left has polemic refutation of our claims in mind.
Just as belief that the current so-called election “reform” is an improvement is counterintuitive, excuses for criminal non-disclosure are equally untenable. Who knows you might get something more substantial than the Grandma argument, though I doubt it. As is more and more common, the liberals' flight from reason is breathtaking, but illustrative, and predictable. After all, they have nothing else left, because they abandoned reason long ago. Now it's just undirected energy--lunacy.
The ends justify the means. The neat part of this whole thing for liberals like DocBenton is the fact that there are plenty of morons walking around who will believe whatever the liberal leaders say, and that of course is the beauty of being liberal. You don’t have to think—just believe.
Ya gotta hand it to them though . . . they are committed . . . to such an extent that they would sacrifice their sanity. Too bad they are not committed to a place where they can get help.
Thanks for the comments.
Sounds like it's time for Logan to be cutting an immunity deal with the feds. Sims is not worth doing time over. Start singing now and save your butt.
I can almost hear Sims sucking him into this back in November/December.
"This is how it's always done. People always drop it after a few weeks. You can play the incompetent card. We'll even get the Seattle Times to use the dorkiest looking photo of you we can find. If worse comes to worse, you can resign to calm the mob. After a cooling-off period, the governor can appoint you to an obscure, highly-paid position. We gotcha covered (wink)."
Posted by: Mr. Grabbit on April 16, 2005 12:52 PMWe are currently living under a dictatorship.
gee, I don't have a clue. So wasn't there some puerile insult on Kos the other day that I could use....
Posted by: iconoclast on April 16, 2005 02:34 PMThere was exactly ZERO chance you'd ever report that anything King County or the Democrats do as being good or accurate.
Posted by: Tom Peterson on April 16, 2005 02:36 PMWhy on earth would you have a problem with this?
I sincerely hope that your real job doesn’t involve numbers.
What a stunning observation there Tom.
The object of this site, as stated on the home page, is "Sound Commentary on Current Events in Seattle, Puget Sound and Washington State".
It's an advocacy site there Tom. Shark is working his butt off trying to figure out what went wrong with the last election.
Of course they are going to feature and highlight the mistakes (which, thanks to the Shark & Co. we now know there were plenty!).
I must give Sharkansky credit - he did quote Ron "Tax~To~The~Max Sims when he declared that "We had an accuracy rate that any bank would envy," (I would be remiss if I left out the rest - " to some laughter from skeptics in the room").
If you're looking for stuff that purports to make democrats look good, I should suggest www.democrats.org. If you find something that shows that the democrats have been accurate at anything, please let us know!
Posted by: alphabet soup on April 16, 2005 03:32 PMWhen has King County ever done anything good or accurate????????????????????
Nothing to report!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Norm on April 16, 2005 03:33 PMDean Logan has never robbed a convenience store.
(thank you, David Letterman, for the joke template)
Hey Tom, democrats have reaally neat slogans and I like that color blue.
the good news is that people see through this...recent polls show even republicans are sick and tired of the accusations on the election and confirm our legitimate governor....
but, that would hardly be "advocacy", eh?
Posted by: Tom Peterson on April 16, 2005 04:24 PM
Holding miscreats accountable is neither.
The insistence of reducing the argument down to a percentage may give you comfort, but the fact is that the percentage accounts for hundreds/thousands of votes.
And the last I heard, court cases weren't decided on your jaundiced views or opinion polls. Funny thing that...the law doesn't matter much to KCE's either...which is why we're having this problem in the first place.
Posted by: scott158 on April 16, 2005 04:43 PMHere, I'll type it slowly, just for you: advocacy is defined as "Active support especially the act of pleading or arguing for something". There, see? Encouraging or favoring an idea, not attacking it (or its opposite).
The "gooder" news is that, along with everything else you've said, you're wrong about voter disgust with the election fiasco. Washingtonians clearly, and increasingly find disfavor with temporary governor gregoire, and support a new election.
And that's grass-roots advocacy at its best!
Like this one?
Or how about these I rassled up? Some are even in blue, you might like them.
Posted by: The Phagosome on April 16, 2005 05:14 PMThis was to prevent a recount or a paper trail. Then the 8 term Democrat Governor Orvel Falbush was always assured a wen, who could contest what didn't exist.
I bet that was what Bill Clinton remembered about churches burning, when he was a kid. It was churches, where ballot boxes were distorted, In those days a church, in rule areas were poling place.
Point we now have modern technology that doesn't draw as much attention called a shredder. A lot of them hit the Government surplus market after the Clinton administration.
Naaaa K.C. is above that sort of thing, don't you think!
I have come to the conclusion that all of the K.C. mess is by design. Not even an dumb eighth grader could screw up that bad.
Posted by: Roy Boy on April 16, 2005 05:34 PMAs to the kos one, only toilet-drinkers go there...
Posted by: alphabet soup on April 16, 2005 05:40 PMIf you want to insult someone's intelligence, use Michael Moore or Barbara Boxer or Patty Murray.
Posted by: Hoystory on April 16, 2005 06:32 PMActually, Shark is working his butt off only because Rossi lost the election.
Get over it, you right-wing zealots. Washington is a Democratic state and you continue to lose here because the people who live here don't like anything you stand for.
No amount of attempted ballot mumbo-jumbo contortions will change the fact that, once again, you went down to inglorious defeat.
Posted by: Nelson on April 16, 2005 06:44 PMRegardless what you think about the governors race, it's not the smartest move to bring in other elections with your "once again" comment. Because, the fact is "once again" it is republicans in the White House, in the majority in the House, and in the Senate, AND in the states, even including liberal California. If you want to talk "once again", how about "once again Bush had very long coattails, helping republicans in tight races across the country." You want to talk facts, well it wasn't widely reported but the fact is republican gains in midterm elections were only the second time in history the party in the White House had such great gains in Congress. I'm just hitting the highlights here, pal, and the further down the road you look the worse it looks for your side. Like, the Roe effect, a logical result of your liberal democrats worship of the politics of death. Everyone of your ilk is more likely to have an abortion, thus raising up fewer and fewer new liberals. Meanwhile conservatives cherish, support and protect life. Maybe one reason why republicans won 99 of the 100 fastest growing counties in America.
No Nelson, whatever happens here in Washington I'm afraid the last thing you want to do is gloat about democrat party trends.
But I never saw a dem defer to facts, and don't expect you to start now either.
Now go away you silly wiper of other people's bottoms, or I shall taunt you a second time!
Chuck
Posted by: Chuck Miller on April 16, 2005 07:15 PMAh, but what happened? Simple my friends, twas ARROGANCE on their part that led to the sloppiness that finally brought us to where we are today. The Washington/King/Pierce Democrat Machine had delivered in the past and to outside appearances was a ‘slick’ and ran as a ‘well oiled machine,’ they had gotten away with so much that the Democrat National Committee let them operate without adult supervision and so as with many crooked operations greed raised it’s ugly head and instead of ‘a little here and a little there’ they wanted it all. They not only wanted a few votes to ‘pad’ an election they wanted to insure that every possible opportunity was capitalized on, ergo we get an election in which every possible ‘vote’ for their side was cast and tallied. The locals were too close to the action to recognize the ramifications and the National Party was not keeping an eye on them.
They now know that at this point they are caught in a trap and the only way they can see to possibly get out ‘clean’ at this juncture is to plead colossal incompetence. We are in the end game now, only by sticking by the mantra ‘we were doing the best we could’ and acting like their documents, to the best of their knowledge, are legit can they hope to prevail. I don’t think that the physical evidence will sustain this argument as tenable much longer, but they are still hoping it will.
Drip, drip, drip, drip the evidence keeps coming in that there was something nefarious behind Her Highness not only having EVERYTHING break her way but also behind the sheer volume of illegitimate voters ‘slipping through the system.’ At this juncture it will still be portrayed as ‘circumstantial’ evidence and possible that it was simply a ‘comedy of errors’ that caused the result, BUT circumstantial evidence is GOOD evidence and by the sheer weight of it in this case it is DAMN GOOD evidence. Good enough to prove ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ that something is not as it is being portrayed.
No one has broken omerta YET, and they are hoping against hope they won’t. BUT as the noose tightens the big fish will start shifting blame to underlings (this has already been a ‘career ender’ for some of the biggies it is going to be a lot more [can you say criminal] for them and others in high places), and at that point on their lawyer’s advice they will start naming names. They will have no choice and at that point all hell will break loose. There may be some who ‘fall on the sword’ but not all will.
"Shall maintain" and "is equal to" means this is not optional, not ambiguous, and not subject to "interpretation";
It depends on what the meaning of "is" is. :-)
Posted by: Ted Schuerzinger on April 16, 2005 08:07 PMNothing amazing about it at all. It's just plain facts that everyone can see.
Bush has lost the fight on Social Security reform. Tom DeLay is going down in flames. The Republican Party has been taken over by a tiny handful of religious zealots and current published polls show general public revulsion at everything Republican today.
The crowning embarrassment for the GOP is that even Republicans who aren't simply tools of fanatical religious zealots -- namely Arnold Schwarzenegger -- are also going down in flames now.
The arrogance of power and the wrongheadedness of your right-wing policies are destroying the Republican Party all over America.
Just open your eyes and look around you. Bush, DeLay and Frist are saying "Follow Me" and guess what?
The American public isn't following them!
Posted by: Nelson on April 16, 2005 08:24 PMNelson, you remind me of Dormouse.
You remember Dormouse, don't you? The fuzzy-brained critter who was determined to sleep his way through life?
Except for the occasional interludes when he would come to life and babble something incoherently, only to nod off again....
Nelson, I think your pillow is calling you.
Posted by: alphabet soup on April 16, 2005 08:44 PMActually Nelson....
The American People ARE following them...
The true majority of this country support the President and voted for his second term. (I know that still hurts you...) If you choose to follow biased polls - put out by the left wing liberal media that claim otherwise...you just go boy! (in fat...just GO!)
Yes! America LOVES Bush! The only people who dislike Delay are liberal Democrats...Doesn't that just anger you? snicker....
Now...back on topic..
King County was NOT able to produce a complete Absentee Ballot Audit Trail from Novembers election??? And the Democrats in Olympia just past an All Absentee voting system?? And the Democrats in Olympia just un-did the people's intiative 601 that caps tax increases?? They just slapped the citizens of Washington State in the face!
I hope people are aware of what has been going on in Olympia this past week.....
There is an email addy to John.McKay@usdoj.gov in a post above....
I know I'm going to use it!
Sure they do Tuck, they are going to raise the ceiling on contributions per annual income; in effect, more taxes from the rich.
Posted by: CandrewB on April 16, 2005 08:58 PM"Tom DeLay is going down in flames."
riigghhhhttttt. That must be why Nancy Pelosi was just fined $21,000, for illegal campaign contributions. That must also be why Delay has yet to be indicted, much less convicted or fined. Nice surreal reality ya got there bubba.
Posted by: dragon on April 16, 2005 09:10 PMStefan is working his tail off on this because he AND a majority of Washington state voters believe that Dino Rossi really won.
I think you should still go to court claiming that KC did not give you the absentee audit trail because the WAC requires that there be a reconciliation, which they haven't given. They will be forced to either admit they broke the law or they will produce the reconciliation. This fixes the "unwilling or unbable" question.
Posted by: VaCSProf on April 16, 2005 10:38 PMThey hold on to the absurd fantasy that Washington state is a democrat state when it is not and never has been nor will it ever be. It is truly independent as far as states go, at least that's what most of the people claim to be. As a state, we're going to flip back and forth between republicans and democrats because we don't have loyalty to one or the other. We have a loyalty to our independence and our state's interests. (Evidence: What's the hottest issue in '04? That's right: the new primary system, where we had to choose a party. No one supported it, because no one considers themselves truly a part of any party.)
What happened in KC last year shows the problem. Democrats don't understand their supporters and voters. They think they can play games and tricks and get away with it because they have a loyal following. The dems in the legislature don't get it either. Look at what happened this year in the legislature. (Hint: the people are mad as heck and I fully suspect the dems are in for a surprise in Nov. 2006.)
As a state, there is only one thing we hate more than partisan politics: and that is corruption in any form. We go absolutely berserk when we catch a whiff of something rotten. Let me tell you, people who normally advocate gun control reach for a rifle when they get riled up over corruption. We vote against fraud, we vote against corruption, and we vote for prosecutors and auditors who are clean as a whistle and don't play party games. (Ever wondered why our county prosecutor is Republican? When you understand this, you will understand the true predicament of the dems.)
If the dems want to play partisan politics in our state, they will be shown the door by the very people they believe will support them.
So go ahead and tell people that WA is a blue state. It makes them want to make it a bit more purple. Go ahead and tell people that they don't care about fraud and corruption. It'll make them ignore you.
The republicans can run on two platforms in '06 and sweep the state and perhaps even King County: true election reform and cleanup, and a respect for the people. The dems will have to do some serious contemplating and reform in their own party if they ever hope to see the light of day again.
Posted by: Jonathan Gardner on April 17, 2005 12:25 AMCONCLAVE COUNTING: So, former Secretary of State Ralph Munro hears that the good folks at King County elections were hired to count the ballots at the papal conclave in Rome. The winner on the first ballot: Rabbi Seth Goldstein.
---------------------------------------------
O.K.: There is my one diversion into humor for this month.
Methow Ken
Well at least the new pope isn't that HorsesA$$, godless, heathen hippy Blogger David Goldstein!!
Posted by: Mr. Cynical on April 17, 2005 07:24 AMHere in Clark County we are basically only considered a "feeder" county. Seattle is happy taking our money for their transportation and welfare projects, but never send any of it back for our needs. I'm tired of this liberal thinking and can't wait for a new election. We're sick of the corruption!
Posted by: Clark County Mom on April 17, 2005 08:21 AMIt's good that the American public has finally caught up to Republican fraud and deceit and that you guys are now on the run all over the country.
That's what arrogance and hypocricy does for you.
Posted by: Nelson on April 17, 2005 09:40 AMKing County electionn produced a document they knew to be incorrect, and presented it to the canvassing board as verification of absentee voting. Tell me how that was "inadvertant?"
Posted by: MIMike on April 17, 2005 09:48 AMThe only poll that matters happens on election day and the Republicans have, "SCOREBOARD".
Nelson, how does it feel to be associated with a group of politicians that are LOSING nationwide? Another simple word to describe you, "LOSER".
Posted by: dmeyers on April 17, 2005 09:56 AMAfter the depositions and court case, once the sewer of KC has been exposed for everyone to see, they will totally lose it and start doing crazy things. It will be fun to watch.
Posted by: dmeyers on April 17, 2005 10:04 AM
Y A W N !
Mistakes might be inadvertant, but covering up mistakes isn't. Claiming the covered up lies were mistakes while simultaniously hiding the audit trail and blocking all legislative attempts to prevent further alledged mistakes is also not inadvertant. This at least the second election that was 'thrown'.
This yawning is the awakening sound of the sleeping moderates who aren't happy with the business as usual scheme in Olympia.
I invite all liberal bozos to exercise the same due dilligence in florida and ohio. That fact is that florida has the same democratic fraud machine as King county.
Gregoire is right about one thing- "the system works just as it should"- when elected officials don't represent the values and desires of the majority of their constituents, the constituents take action.
Posted by: andy_ on April 17, 2005 10:47 AMReally, just in case you forgot. 170,000+ more
people in the state of Washington casted ballots
for both John Kerry and Patty Murray in the
federal elections. Then the total number of
ballots cast for Gregiore as governor. It would
have never been this close, without Democrats
deciding that Gregoire was the wrong person to be
Washington's Governor.
Does "Florida-2000" ring a bell?
Or is that "different" somehow?
Didn't think so.
Posted by: Who... Me? on April 17, 2005 11:43 AM
Inadvertent human errors?
You have evidence of that?
It's becoming more and more clear this is fraud pure and simple. The pathetic attempt at a cover up with the support and approval of the County Executive is making this the last stand of the Democratic machine.
One more thing Nelson, I hope you fly on airlines with a 99% rate of safe landings. If you do you won't be breathing much longer.
Posted by: swassociates on April 17, 2005 11:57 AMWhat has Tom DeLay done that's unethical, let alone illegal? Please, tell us.
Yes, yes, we know he's been criminally effective in passing legislation to reduce taxes, secure drilling in ANWR, and is set to reform Social Security and restore advise and consent to judicial appointments- all things that must have you frothing at the mouth. (Especially since according to you he and Bush are able to do all this despite nobody in America wanting these things!) So yeah we know he's criminally effective, but what has he done that's unethical?
Please, do tell.
Posted by: Chuck Miller on April 17, 2005 12:21 PMDo the right thing--protect my vote by pushing for the fewest errors and cleanest election possible.
Posted by: Larry T on April 17, 2005 12:23 PMThey must use this "strategery" for they have no solutions or ideas of their own.
Posted by: Larry T on April 17, 2005 12:30 PMI'm fighting the good fight and donating to the Re-Vote fund. I would encourage you all to do the same as fighting the democrats is expensive work. Their latest tactic is to attempt to nullify the illegal felon votes by making Republicans prove more than we already have (which of course is now the Democrat's job to prove they're wrong, not the other way around). It's simply an attempt to drain the coffers because they know once we can't pay for the fight, it's all over without them having to lift a finger. Join me in defeating these evil people and ensure that Washington has fair elections!
Posted by: Clark County Mom on April 17, 2005 02:37 PMGood point, Tom. Is this why all that so-called "domestic violence advocates" do is attack men and the institution of marriage?
Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on April 17, 2005 02:46 PMIf you feel so wonderful in your position, why not put money on it? If you feel we are whining weenies, why not explain why with so much errors determined, the lack of trackable voting evidence, the number of numerical mistakes on multiple voting accounting slips, you feel so smug in your position?
Clean out the cobwebs in the mind, or in your case, the mind is a terrible thing.
Please keep writing Nelson. Please keep us in comedy Nelson. Please keep your dumbocratic ideals Nelson. We need more Nelsons, we really do. They argue our positions for us.
NUFF SAID!!!!
Pudster
Posted by: Puddybud on April 17, 2005 02:47 PMBy the way, Tom Delay is not going down in flames ! He did nothing wrong, although it was disappointing. Right, the Dems are using the smear strategy - politics of personal destruction they employed to move Gingrich to resign and also Trent Lott, but the people recognize it too well this time, as does US Rep. Delay. It's time for the Republicans to throw it back at the unethical leadership of the Dems; (Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry to name a few) and expose them for who they are.
Nuff said...
Posted by: KS on April 17, 2005 03:29 PMThat should be; "He did nothing unlawful, although it was disappointing."
Posted by: KS on April 17, 2005 03:30 PMOne would think that all honest folks no matter their political leanings would have just as much as stake and identical goals in the outcome of this debacle and the court case. Our entire system of politics and parties depends upon open, free, and error free elections. The right to vote is derived from being a citizen of our great country and anything that abrogates, belittles, or negates my rights is an affront to the rights of every lawful citizen in America.
I would love to vote, have a purple thumb, and then go online and see a true an honest accounting of all of citizen's votes in detail to include the precinct detail!!! (Then Stephan would not have to to do the work he is doing.) That is the definition of free and 'open' elections.
God Bless Washington State and all of the citizens in this time of turmoil!!!
Timman
Posted by: Timman on April 17, 2005 03:40 PMDemocrats are liberals. The primary liberal doctrine is to beleive in anything that has no facts associated with it and the secondary one is to try anything that obviously doesn't work over and over again. Otherwise anything goes. In short, they don't care, because they are in power.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on April 17, 2005 05:08 PMYep. A perfect example is Goldy over at HorsesAss. He's always writing about how he believes in "Government" and "Taxes", etc. That's a euphemistic way of saying that he believes in statism. The people that espouse these views are all your typical American Socialists. They like being in America, they like the freedom, they definitely like the freedom of speech, they like the benefits of the hard work of those of us who believe in individual rights that keep prices low, competition strong, etc. However, they also want to eat their cake too and turn the country towards socialism. What they don't get is that statism and individually centric governments are mutually exclusive. And it should be obvious that their Utopian schemes are financially impossible.
The good news is that in the long run, there is no way that they can win, because as soon as the US starts to look even remotely like Sweden or Russia where collectivism and statism have failed, the rest of us will fight hard to keep America beautiful.
Posted by: Jeff B. on April 17, 2005 07:47 PMYep. A perfect example is Goldy over at HorsesAss. He's always writing about how he believes in "Government" and "Taxes", etc. That's a euphemistic way of saying that he believes in statism. The people that espouse these views are all your typical American Socialists. They like being in America, they like the freedom, they definitely like the freedom of speech, they like the benefits of the hard work of those of us who believe in individual rights that keep prices low, competition strong, etc. However, they also want to eat their cake too and turn the country towards socialism. What they don't get is that statism and individually centric governments are mutually exclusive. And it should be obvious that their Utopian schemes are financially impossible.
The good news is that in the long run, there is no way that they can win, because as soon as the US starts to look even remotely like Sweden or Russia where collectivism and statism have failed, the rest of us will fight hard to keep America beautiful.
Posted by: Jeff B. on April 17, 2005 07:47 PMSome have expressed how Washington State is neither right-wing or liberal-left! This is so true! Those of us who support Dino Rossi and Sound Politics are far from fanatical right-wingers! Many here are not even Republican. The vast majority consider themselves conservative - and hold to our constitution. And indeed - there are *conservative* Democrats who also hold to our constitution! Nelson..etal...are not among them.
You just can't paint this group as radical right- wingers...it doesn't fit...it won't work. We are just honest Washington citizens who want to cut through the *fringe* element that has invaded our cities and counties. We want to restore our election process to pre-fraud and return to more accountable times.
After reading through these post's....I am so proud to be a part of this place!
You guys are saying that most democrats are not liberals, but their leadership has gained power scaring them into voting for them and their stupid liberal manifesto, because of Republicans?
Posted by: Amused by liberals on April 17, 2005 08:16 PMI think they mean - that by villianizing Republicans - making them seem like vicious monsters...and using propaganda and scare tactics...they (the liberal left) are able to fool some Democrats (those sitting on the fence) into joining their fringe group of liberals..
Liberalism is synonomous with stupidity. People who are so easily fooled as to allow leaders like Christine Gregoire, Jim McDermott or Patty Murray, con them into anything or who would allow themselves to be cowed by fear of conservatism are stupid--ergo liberal. Today, all democrats are liberals, and many Republicans are liberals as well. I have spoken with Patty Murray and she is truly no mental powerhouse, but she is a typical liberal. Anyone who would vote for Murray no matter who the other candidate is is a liberal democrat and an idiot.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on April 17, 2005 08:59 PMPerhaps you might consider changing your name to:
AMUSED BY KARL (MARX)
Remember:
Seattle would not be in such a snarl;
If Marx had been Groucho, instead of Karl!
A true liberal not only believes in free speach, but tolerates other peoples' free speach - especially when he/she disagrees with it.
Communists, nazis, racists, and religeous fanatics have one thing in common with today's "Liberal" establishment. They will use whatever power they have available to suppress and subvert free speach when it differs from their own views.
Like the Minstry of Truth in Orwell's 1984, the "Liberals" of the 21st century are NOT to be taken at face value.
Deborah's words on the make up of the SP readership I think are pretty close to the truth. With the exception of some "Progressive" trolls and the odd religious conservative, most of the comments I read are from the centerists. People who vote issues not ideology.
I hope both the contributors and the commentors stay that way. The debate is stimulating and mostly well reasoned.
Posted by: DeadWood on April 17, 2005 09:51 PMAmused by Liberals....
You DO have a point....
The liberals teaching at our public schools and colleges are the equivalent of radical religious *cult* leaders...They perpetrate their venemous anti-Republican beliefs on our kids in a constant mantra....They isolate those who don't fall in step with their anti-conservative rage and they consume our childrens sense of reality...They are indeed cult leaders....But how do we explain the adults who are swept up into the liberal fringe? One word - UNIONS
I have relatives who work for union employers (Boeing, etc..). The Union bosses are equivalent to the college professors when it comes to perpetrating liberalism among their union employees... No one dares to object to the propaganda....There is too much at stake..It's best to be a good little nazi (liberal Democrat) and stay employed...
Liberalism is bred in our public education system and colleges and also in our unions....In all of these places - there are serious consequences for those who do not conform to their liberal superiors beliefs....
This has got to change...
Posted by: Deborah on April 17, 2005 09:55 PMLook at how Mayor Street has destroyed Philadelphia, my home town. Look at the Daley's in Chicago. Nuff Said there. Look at how Atlanta has gone downhill. Look at the big dig in Boston, fed by Kennedy and Kerry congressional pork, many $millions over budget and it had over 100 leaks. All democratic run cities have issues, just like Seattle. WHY is that Nelson? If you give something free to anyone will they work at it. NO! Jim McDermott promises what? I have no idea, yet they vote for his butt. And last but not least, each one of those wonderful cities, along with Columbus and Cleveland had election issues, run by democrats of course!!!
So Nelson what do have to say. Nuthin, I guess, because the truth hurts!!!
NUFF SAID!!!!
Pudster
Posted by: Puddybud on April 17, 2005 10:38 PMA republican in a wheel chair rolls into a cafe. He notices a man who looks homeless in the corner, and tells the waiter to take the man a sandwich on him.
A few minutes later a libertarian on crutches goes into the cafe. He also notices the homeless man and tells the waiter to take the man a bowl of soup and add it to his bill.
Shortly thereafter a democrat enters the cafe limping and using a cane. He, too, notices the man and tells the waiter to take him a cup of hot coffee and a piece of cake, on him.
When the homeless man finishes his meal he rises and everyone sees that it's actually Jesus. Jesus walks to the republican, touches him on the shoulder and thanks him for the sandwich. Immediately the republican rises from his wheel chair and walks!
Jesus then walks to the libertarian, touches him on the shoulder, and thanks him for the soup. The libertarian throws away his crutches and rushes out to tell his family.
Jesus then turns to the democrat who puts up both hands and says, "Don't touch me! I'm drawing disability!"
Also, hasn't this tobacco settlement money been spent 20 times now?
Posted by: Andy_ on April 17, 2005 11:58 PMPerfect!
Posted by: Amused by liberals on April 18, 2005 08:32 AMYou seem to be saying that so called "Liberals" are one thing, true liberalism means another thing about liberals makeup, while today's "Liberal" establishment (apparently) by extension means something else about liberals makeup. This is hopelessly vague and meaningless. What exactly do you mean?
Hair-splitting is hardly essential to recognition of the body of ideas commonly considered liberal, or those who practice them, unless you are interested in justifying them through niggling dissimulation.
Mr.Cynical has it right when he says that liberalism--presumably "open-mindedness "“is mighty, mighty close to empty-headedness,” except to the extent that some of the leaders of the democrat liberal socialists are far from stupid. They know the value of a doctrine that easily captures and holds the attentions of fools.
May well be that I have your comments all wrong. What say you?
Democrats instinctively play the "political two-step": Invent a problem - invent (and throw money at) a solution.
It did come out of nowhere because there isn't a need or overwhelming desire for it. They created it in order to:
1. find new places to spend money
2. avoid solving existing problems
3. reward cronies
It will fail because:
1. It is a half-assed idea
2. they didn't think any part of it through
3. As you said, the money is promised elsewhere.
I'm fairly certain you're going to see an effort by Dumb & Dumber (Cantwell & Murray) to try to pry federal funds out of other programs for this (latest democrat) debacle.
Stay tuned, you ain't seen nothin yet!!!
Posted by: alphabet soup on April 18, 2005 02:33 PM