April 04, 2005
Educational Workhorses, Educational Show Horses

In this Seattle Times column, Kate Riley argues that this state's community colleges "are, in many ways, the workhorses of higher education".  Her argument didn't interest me much, because I favor radical reform in higher education, but her metaphor did.  If some institutions are "workhorses", then others — which she does not name — must be "show horses", institutions that look pretty but are not pulling their share of the weight.

Riley does not name any show horses, and I would not expect her, or anyone else at the Seattle Times, to do so.  As understand it, the newspaper believes that any criticism of higher education in the state, however justified, would lessen public support for the institutions.  So the newspaper avoids holding them to account, if possible.

But there must be some show horses in our public educational system.  Any bureaucracy as large as those that run the schools in this state will accumulate show horses over time.  And, though the Seattle Times may not be interested in finding those show horses, the taxpayers should be*.   So, let's see if we can, together, identify some show horses in our educational system.  And let's make this search broad.  I don't see any reason to limit the search to institutions of higher education.  If you know of a school, a department, or a practice that is a show horse, share that knowledge with us.

Those familiar Washington's colleges and universities will immediately suspect that Evergreen State is a show horse.   I share that suspicion, but must admit that I do not know enough about the college to be certain that it should be put out to pasture.  So I will leave Evergreen State to others who are better informed.  (For what it is worth, the college seems pleased by Gregoire's budget.  I am sure they got an increase because Gregoire thinks Evergreen State is a workhorse, not because their faculty voted, at a guess, 90 percent for John Kerry in the last election.)

But I can identify a show horse practice.  Teachers in Washington state, like teachers in most other states, can get higher pay by taking courses, usually from ed schools.   There is no evidence that these courses make them better teachers.  I once asked my mother, who taught elementary school and then special education for years, whether any of the courses she had taken had made her a better teacher.  She thought about it, said no, and then brightened a bit and said that she had enjoyed some of them.  Which is not a sufficient reason, in my opinion, for the taxpayers to pay teachers to take those courses.  Nearly every teacher I have spoken to has the same opinion as my mother about the usefulness of the courses.  I have never seen a formal study that showed that these courses improved the effectiveness of the teachers who (usually) suffer through them.

So there's my show horse, just to get things started.  Now it's your turn.

Cross posted at Jim Miller on Politics.

*(Note that this is true whether you favor lower expenditures for education, the same expenditures, or higher expenditures.  Putting a show horse out to pasture releases resources that can be returned to the taxpayers — or used by work horses, or both.)

Posted by Jim Miller at April 04, 2005 08:50 AM | Email This

Comments
1. "Those familiar [with] Washington's colleges and universiteis will immediately suspect that Evergreen State is a show horse."

Why? Yes, we know, you believe that they are all a bunch of commie-hippies. But do you have a single fact to back up what you even admit is an unfounded attack. The Evergreen State College is consistantly ranked as one of the best liberal arts instituions in the country. Name another college in the Pacific Northwest that has as good of a reputation.

I, like most of you, suspect that to be a conservative blogger, you simply have to base your oppinions on unverifiable anecdotes. It also helps to have no knowledge of the subject that you criticise and no facts, that way you have less of a chance of being constructive. I have talked to several people, and they all agree with this.

Posted by: JDB on April 4, 2005 09:16 AM
2. for tne record it would good to point out how much the "show horses" spend with MSM. It's not a small chunk of change.

Posted by: Andy on April 4, 2005 09:18 AM
3. Thomas Sowell has long proposed that the best way to improve public education would be to eliminate the schools of education and simply require teachers to have an earned bachelors degree in an actual academic discipline. Perhaps a one-year skills course to give them the tools to organize lesson plans, etc.

Posted by: Fritz on April 4, 2005 09:27 AM
4. Our school district is in the middle of a full week of half day classes and parent-teachers conferences in the afternoon- except one of the teachers did not want to meet with us.

The second week is school break.

When are the kids taught? When these kids get in high school it has one of the greatest dropout rates, even when you just consider Washington state.

Not much for a "show" horse example, but maybe we can call it a "prancer".

Posted by: swatter on April 4, 2005 09:34 AM
5. Community Colleges are a workhorse. They focus on students that for some reason or another were not motivated to learn in high school. This could be for a variety of reasons but I believe ultimately it was the fault of the student. Community Colleges are a place where students get a second chance at education. They are there of their own choice and are motivated to learn life long skills. I have found Community Colleges far superior to Large Universities. specifically UW. Both my kids went to Bellevue Community College and received excellent teaching from caring and concerned instructors. The classes were smaller and the teachers were grading and instructing the students. At UW the teachers had very large classes. There was little interaction with students. If you did not understand lectures or the quality of teaching was poor, there was little chance of getting clarification from the teacher(who often was a student instructor). I myself attended BCC as an adult after receiving a degree in the 70's and found the instruction to be effective and applicable to my present career. I would encourage funding Community Colleges at the expense of 1.High Schools that don't Work 2. Four Year Institutions that have tenured Instructors who have less than 20 hours a week face time with students in class.

Posted by: Greg on April 4, 2005 09:37 AM
6. I have to agree with Greg; after one year at Joliet Junior College, the remaining three at the University of Wisconsin were easy in comparison.

Posted by: CandrewB on April 4, 2005 09:46 AM
7. My show horse is state support of colleges. First, the idea of in-state tuition is being abused by non-Washingtonians. I think there should be one tuition amount for all students at state colleges. Secondly, if students want a discount from that amount, they should pledge to remain and work within the state for 5 years after graduation.
Another show horse is the whole idea of state colleges. Why should taxpayers pay for anymore than K-12? If students & their families want a college education, they should be willing to pay for it with no support from others. There are plenty of loan and grant programs as well as work-study if students really want an education.

Posted by: Clean House on April 4, 2005 09:49 AM
8. I haven't a great deal of experience in evaluating Wa higher education. I did look around when my son was getting ready and we lived in Alaska. I visited Evergreen and had no pangs of conscience in rejecting it. Since Rachel Corrie I am ecstatic about rejecting it. My son wound up a Gonzaga. Recently, looking for an argument, I googled some information and came across this. Now I understand that every bureaucracy has a bloated wishlist to present to the legislature but I was really taken aback at the spending proposals contained in this. Workfirst, pay increases, 4 year community colleges, etc and absolutely no priorities. Much of it is built upon the flimsiest of reasons. For example, this comment on Workfirst: "Hanebuth is currently finishing a project management
certificate at Edmonds CC, which she thinks will help
her find a good job to support her two children. She
expressed how lucky she feels, that returning to school
has been a positive experience, and she encourages
other WorkFirst parents to go to school."

She "thinks" she might get a job so we should extend the program from 12 months to 24. This was backed by testimony from all the usual suspects.
Tony Lee, advocacy director for the Fremont Public
Association and policy director for the Statewide
Poverty Action Network, spoke in favor of the bill.
Additional testimony was given in support of the bill
from Monica Peabody from the Welfare Rights
Organizing Coalition, Sheila Walker, TANF recipient,
and Ellen O’Brien Saunders, executive director of the
Workforce Training and Education Coordinating Board.

Posted by: tom scott on April 4, 2005 10:06 AM
9. Clean House asks "Why should taxpayers pay for anymore than K-12?"

CH needs to take the next step to a clean house:

Why should taxpayers pay for any "education" at all?

Posted by: DannyHSDad on April 4, 2005 10:06 AM
10. Swatter,

I think you named the "Showhorse." It's the K-12 system. Ii's very expensive, much effort spent on image creating, and little result.

That's why the Community College is the "workhorse," finishing what the K-12 system should have done. How else do you explain over 1/2 the CC feshmen having to take remedial classes?

Mark

Posted by: Mark on April 4, 2005 10:11 AM
11. Four-year institutions prepare students, for the most part, for professional careers. Community Colleges provide academic and technical classes for students who proceed directly to the workforce in careers such as nursing, industrial trades and construction. CC's do an outstanding job of bridging the K-12 years (much of which is irrelevant to preparation for real life) and skilled workforce jobs. Many high schoolers would be much better served by technical high schools some European countries offer (did I just say something good about Europe?) in lieu of college preparatory high school programs.

I agree, Jim, with your assessment of the Evergreen State College. When I offered my daughter a college education I had two requirements: It had to be in a field she could earn a living at and it was good for any in-state public institution except Evergreen.

Posted by: Saltherring on April 4, 2005 10:12 AM
12. well, well, well.... JDB "[has] talked to several people, and they all agree with this." I guess that settles it, and all of us are wrong.

thanks for the clarification, JDB.

Posted by: Richard Easbey on April 4, 2005 10:12 AM
13. Perhaps not a show horse per se, but "grade inflation" has been a recent problem at all levels of higher education. Students are expecting high grades for mediocre work (my opinion). I understand that a "B" is considered the "average" grade in many ivory towers of learning. If everyone gets good grades, everyone (student/professor/school/parents/state officials) looks good like a show horse (even if they are a slower horse).

Posted by: JG on April 4, 2005 10:20 AM
14. Saltherring claims "Four-year institutions prepare students, for the most part, for professional careers."

It's amazing how many people really believe this mindless propaganda.

The purpose of college is not to prepare students for a job.

The purpose is to collect your money and promise you a piece of paper. Period. No job guarantee. No career guarantee. No money back. If you're successful, you might get your face on the alumni newsletter but otherwise, "don't call us, we'll call you."

Or to put it another way, why did Bill Gates drop out of a well known "four-year institution" which should have equipt him for a professional career? Or does Saltherring know something that Bill Gates missed? (Or Steve Jobs or Michael Dell or....)

Posted by: DannyHSDad on April 4, 2005 10:25 AM
15. JDB "But do you have a single fact to back up what you even admit is an unfounded attack."

Which side of the argument do you want? You are criticizing people for NOT producing a fact to support a hypothesis that you say these people say is unfounded. You can't have it both ways (at least with one fact to back you up).

This is like me calling you a fool for not producing one fact that the world is flat, which you agree that it isn't.

Posted by: Fred on April 4, 2005 10:25 AM
16. I disagree with Greg. I believe that the impersonal nature of UW forces the student to take a more proactive approach to their teaching. Community colleges continue to have their place, but for the person who is eager to get the tools to faciliate a rigorous education, they simply will not work.

Unfortunately, UW is overcrowded with too many students who have been ushered there by their parents, and too few students who truly want to learn. Of course, that makes it nice for those of us who take (took) the initiative to seek out the profs for face-to-face time. I, for one, am happy with the current state of UW and the current state of community colleges.

Posted by: bmvaughn on April 4, 2005 10:28 AM
17. I disagree with Greg. I believe that the impersonal nature of UW forces the student to take a more proactive approach to their learning. Community colleges continue to have their place, but for the person who is eager to get the tools to faciliate a rigorous education, they simply will not work.

Unfortunately, UW is overcrowded with too many students who have been ushered there by their parents, and too few students who truly want to learn. Of course, that makes it nice for those of us who take (took) the initiative to seek out the profs for face-to-face time. I, for one, am happy with the current state of UW and the current state of community colleges.

Posted by: bmvaughn on April 4, 2005 10:28 AM
18. Showhorse #1, public schools. My list is in volumes but I'll give a couple prime cuts here.
Schools that give lip service to the "prepare each student to enter the work force" Oooh yeah! Hey student, when you enter the work force, you'll get a couple days off every month, summer off, early dismissal, every utterance of a state holiday off, days off so your supervisor can have "planning" days, Christmas break, winter break, spring break and don't show up when it snows. That's the work place we're preparing you for. We're also preparing you for that place by policies like no hats. Never mind you can wear pants down to the middle of your rump, shirts that show your navel and northward, goofy hair and tacklebox facial fixtures. The work force will love you with it.
Another "Showhorse" would be District Superintendants. Why do many of them make more that the State Superintendants?

Posted by: PC on April 4, 2005 10:47 AM
19. OK, DannyHSDad, I'll give you Gates, who was way ahead of his time. And I'll concede that many degree programs (communications, sociology, psychology) probably aren't worth the paper they're printed on. But if you ever need your gallbladder taken out, or need your will updated, I'll bet my last buck you won't ask the guy at the corner garage to do it! And, no, I'm not a college grad.

Posted by: Saltherring on April 4, 2005 11:08 AM
20. I agree with Greg. Community College is a workhorse, but only because K-12 education is a showhorse. I can't believe the amount of college freshmen that are taking remedial courses in english and math.

I went to Spokane Community College and found that the overwhelming number of students were there because they didn't know what to do after high school. Most didn't plan on attending a university.

When I got to Western Washington University, I found the Business and Economics school challenging, but curious. They wanted to prepare you for the "real world," but classes in business were closed on Fridays.

Posted by: Ken on April 4, 2005 11:23 AM
21. The purpose of college is not to prepare students for a job. The purpose is to collect your money and promise you a piece of paper. Period. No job guarantee. No career guarantee. No money back.

Someone once told me that going to college simply to get a job is the wrong idea.
The rationale for college is that a person with a college education will be able to perform the tasks assigned in any related profession better than a person who has not completed college.

Whether this is (still) true is debatable. I like the concept, but I think too many high school students are being pushed toward college, where another alternative might be better for them.

Someone else told me that too many college professors "have been educated beyond their intelligence." That one I believe.

Posted by: JG on April 4, 2005 12:02 PM
22. Well DannyHSDad, if your kids' businesses fails(and some do) at least they will have their high school diploma to fall back on. A four year degree is pretty much treated as a license to get a job in many a company these days. And Tom, about Rachel Corrie going to Evergreen, so what? Not like they are in the same league or anything but where did Bundy go? I bet quite a few people you would describe as distasteful graduated from Seattle U, Gonzaga, Bob Jones, etc... well maybe not Bob Jones, but you get the picture.

Posted by: CandrewB on April 4, 2005 12:09 PM
23. I found college to be, for me, an environment where I matured more "on my own" with the still extant safety net from mom and dad. You were out on your own, but still somewhat tethered to the folks.

College also helped me think critically. But if the student isn't made of stronger stuff, they will be tossed about by the Ward Churchills of the academy.

Posted by: dkpcowboy on April 4, 2005 12:12 PM
24. Strange, but why are high school juniors going to junior college to get classes I used to get in high school?

They call it Early Start or something.

Is this a creative way to teach high school while dipping into another pot of money at the state level?

Posted by: swatter on April 4, 2005 12:35 PM
25. JDB - If you will read the post carefully, you will see that I deliberately did not classify Evergreen State.

Posted by: Jim Miller on April 4, 2005 12:47 PM
26. I received this reply from Kate Riley:

Hmmm. I find it puzzling that you suggest the Times doesn't criticize education institutions. You apparently missed our numerous editorials lambasting the UW Medical School's Medicare and Medicaid fraud and calling for the med school dean to resign -- not to mention the previously disastrous state of the athletic department. Also, we've been very critical of the Seattle School Board and, in fact,have run an editorial urging better candidates to step forward for this year's election.
Best, kate

I thought I covered those examples with my "if possible" qualification. Some disasters are too big for the Seattle Times to ignore, even if the editors there want to.

Despite our continuing disagreement, I would like to thank Ms. Riley for her thoughtful reply. (And let me suggest that all of you read her fine column on the Kennewick man in today's paper.)

Posted by: Jim Miller on April 4, 2005 12:59 PM
27. As much as I didn't particularly care for the place when I was there, I suppose that I would have to agree with Greg here on BCC being a reasonably effective institution. I never did particularly well in high school, primarily due to an aversion to homework. I graduated from high school with about a 2.8 GPA, and was unable to get admitted to any universities with it (I probably could have gone to CWU, but don't know how I would have paid for it.) I ended up at BCC, where I graduated with an AA degree in Information Technology/Programming last June, with a nearly 3.5 GPA, and presumably a much better chance of getting into a college to finish a Bachelor's degree. I could have gotten into UW automatically on the Direct Transfer Agreement at the time, but my plans for that ended up being derailed by very well paying employment, especially given my experience level.

All things considered, they could have covered things a little better in places, and there are a few leftover Marxist hippie types around teaching "How to be good Proletariat when the Revolution Comes 101" type stuff, but I only ran into one of those types in the English department in the time I was there, and for the most part the only politics you'll get exposed to there in most degree programs are in the flyers for the various far leftist groups on the bulletin boards or in the fishwrap they pass off as their school paper. All in all, I don't know that I'd want to hang out there for too long, and I was glad to be rid of the place when I finished up my AA, but it's not a bad option for those people who need it.

Posted by: Vexorg on April 4, 2005 12:59 PM
28. Saltherring admits "And, no, I'm not a college grad."

Well I am and I certainly don't have much to show for my degrees (Computer Science MA & BS, Math BA, and Engineering Physics AS) other than 4 sheets of paper. They are used as a filter to get into big companies (and not so big companies) but really, my skills were honed independent of my degrees (everything I needed for my first full-time job I self-taught during highschool -- mainly because I was bored with my classes).

Considering that FDA had to un-certify several drugs recently, I don't trust any gov'nt certification be it drugs, medical doctors, lawyers, driver's license, marriage license or anything else certifiable (or highschool diploma for that matter). Even NASA can't get it right (I give you Challenger and Columbia for starters).

On the other hand, I loved Wired's La Vida Robot story of how the motivated high schoolers beat the pants off MIT students! So much for college degrees... (Yes they were public school students, but they didn't use public school money nor public school study time and they didn't even do their test run at their school -- since they didn't have a pool.)

Posted by: DannyHSDad on April 4, 2005 01:03 PM
29. I noticed that Jim. Bang - right out of the box JDB is defensive about Evergreen State and noboby had even mentioned it. Almost makes you think that the libs recognize the shortcommings of that institution themselves doesn't it?

Posted by: Jay on April 4, 2005 01:05 PM
30. One only has to look at the fallacy of "Running Start". Simultaneous high school AND college credit for the same course work. Would be fine if the course work were really college-level. Kids with marginal performance in high school turning 3.8's and higher at the CC's. Ample examples in my experience of kids from Shorewood High, now at Shoreline CC via Running Start, indicate how much easier the work and lower the load at the CC.

Posted by: BubbaDoRadar on April 4, 2005 01:07 PM
31. JDB,

Several years ago, I turned down an opportunity to expedite a scholarship degree program at Evergreen because I knew they were nationally renowned for low standards based on their liberal approach to education. It would have required me to attend fewer credit hours of classes to obtain the same degree that I acheived at an institution with a far better reputation.

Like most of the colleges and universities in America, Evergreen is inclined to dispense the type of bu**$hit leftist propaganda that is common today. Evergreen is a shameless liberal/communist propaganda machine, and they are worse now than they were then.

Posted by: Amused by liberals on April 4, 2005 01:25 PM
32. Regarding why Evergreen gets high rankings, consider that billionaire Mort Zuckerman's (publisher of US News and World Report)late brother, Erwin, was last a faculty member at Evergreen before he died. Evergreen has no grades and was designed in the early 70's as an experiment, where faculty would not have tenure, etc., etc. (in fact they have better than tenure). What the people of SW Washington need, is a regional university, like WSU, CSW and EWU. The state constitution makes no mention of higher ed but says the state is responible for basic ed. Some politicians want to make higher ed a constitutional mandate when the state cannot get K-12 right. And, if you want to see waste, look at higher ed, especially UW's building and leasing arrangements (one lease with Vulcan - Paul Allen's Company - for 30 years at the end of which UW doesn't own the building); UW's 16 "private" foundations that our housed at the UW and solicit $ in the UW's name, etc. As Mike McGavick (CEO of Safeco) has advocated privitization of public higher ed and I agree with him.

Posted by: Newman on April 4, 2005 01:32 PM
33. JDB PIPES UP ON EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS

I find it particularly amusing that JDB says, "The Evergreen State College is consistantly ranked as one of the best liberal arts instituions [sic] in the country." and then says, "I, like most of you, suspect that to be a conservative blogger, you simply have to base your oppinions [sic] on unverifiable anecdotes. Name another college in the Pacific Northwest that has as good of a reputation."

JDB,
U.W., WWSU, Seattle University, Gonzaga, and on and on. Academically, Evergreen is at the very bottom of the list. As a "liberal" institution, who knows, and who cares? People should'nt be forced to cope with liberal indoctrination, but academic excellence.

Then JDB says, "It also helps to have no knowledge of the subject that you criticise and no facts, that way you have less of a chance of being constructive. I have talked to several people, and they all agree with this."

JDB, I'm sure that we can all recognize that you have no knowledge of the subject that you criticise and that your information comes from several people who agree with you.

Good job, JDB. Keep it up.

Posted by: Amused by liberals on April 4, 2005 01:41 PM
34. JDB - "The Evergreen State College is consistantly ranked as one of the best liberal arts instituions in the country."

What a joke. According to US News and World Report's rankings, there are 217 liberal arts colleges in the US.

Does Evergreen show up in the top 110? No.

Does Evergreen show up in the Tier 3 list? No.

So, where's Evergreen? Tier 4, the bottom 50 or so.

Posted by: Lynxx Pherrett on April 4, 2005 02:58 PM
35. At WWU we have Fairhaven, which has an ultra liberal touchy-feely focus where grades are not considered important. Our old joke on campus was "Why did the Fairhaven student cross the street?" To get a credit!

Posted by: Ken on April 4, 2005 03:55 PM
36. Many of the community college students that I have met don't fit the easy, glib stereotypes. We have the high school foul-ups, and the drifters, but we also have those who are trying to get an education with limited funds by paying less for 2 years, and then transferring to a larger 4 year as a Junior. We also have the professional track, those who are using the community colleges as a road into nursing, for example. Many students are also those coming back (or the first time) to higher education after years of work, or Boeing layoffs, or motherhood, or whatever.
Many Community colleges seem be much more diverse in student body (age, gender, ethnicity, citizenship, etc.) than 4 years colleges are.

I myself never went to a 2 year school--I managed to handle the challenges and pressures of a 4 year school just fine for a BA and an MA-- but I can see how 2 year schools are not really dumping or re-training grounds for the incompetent, but rather an alternative track into higher education for those who choose to use them as such.

Posted by: pseudotsuga on April 4, 2005 04:33 PM
37. Showhorse? I can think of no better example at my University than the Department of Comparative Ethnic Studies: http://libarts.wsu.edu/cac/.

Posted by: Greg J. on April 4, 2005 04:53 PM
38. Bubba, I actually think running start is one of the rare gems in our public school system. These kids take courses at their CC, which has much higher standards than their HS curriculum.

Posted by: Greg J. on April 4, 2005 04:56 PM
39. http://www.evergreen.edu/aboutevergreen/praise.htm


One of America's Best Value Colleges
"America's Best Value Colleges" Random House/Princeton Review, March 30, 2004

Evergreen is included in this book of 77 colleges with outstanding academics, low-to-moderate tuition and fees, and generous financial aid packages. "We identified more than 30 factors by which we rated the colleges in three categories: academics, tuition, and tuition GPA: the sticker price minus average amount students receive in gift aid scholarships and grants. The 77 schools we chose for this book may not be the least costly colleges in America, but they are all great education deals. We highly recommend them to students and parents seeking the best academic bang for their buck."
A Program to Look For
"America's Best Colleges 2004," U.S. News & World Report, 2003

For first-year experiences, offering freshmen seminars and other programs that bring together small groups of students with faculty or staff on a regular basis.

For learning communities, where students typically take two or more linked courses together and get to know each other and their professors.

Most for Your Money: A Hot School of 2004
"Newsweek," Sept. 1, 2003

"With states increasingly focusing resources on small liberal-arts colleges in their systems, Evergreen has become a contender for those who might head off to pricey private schools. It has a small school's size, curriculum and educational chops."

A Top 100 Outstanding (But Underappreciated) College
"Harvard Schmarvard: Getting Beyond the Ivy League to the College That Is Best for You," Jay Mathews, 2003

"In keeping with the individualistic traditions of the Pacific Northwest, the 4,000 undergraduates are required to create their own course of study on this lovely campus."

Hipness Grade: A+
"The Hipster Handbook," Robert Lanham, 2002

Evergreen "is the kind of school where you earn high marks just for being a Hipster. Calvin Johnson is an alumnus of Evergreen. He is also the founder of K Records, whose slogan is 'Exploding the teenage underground into passionate revolt against the corporate ogre since 1982.' Bruce Pavitt, who founded SubPop records and coined the term 'grunge,' also went to Evergreen."

One of the 40 Best College Towns
"Outside," Sept. 2003

"Students are free to design their own academic pathways, and innovative courses like snow ecology combine a mix of ecology, technical mountaineering, and wilderness first-response training."

A College That Changes Lives
"Colleges That Change Lives: 40 Schools You Should Know About Even If You're A Straight-A Student," Loren Pope, 1996, 2000

"The Evergreen State College offers the most unusual undergraduate experience in the Northwest, or in any public institution anywhere. Taxpayers everywhere should demand colleges like this one that changes their children's lives. For a public institution it is more than unusual, it is unique, because values are as important as learning and public service is strongly encouraged."

Posted by: JDB on April 4, 2005 10:41 PM
40. Because snow ecology is such a vital field!!

The idea that students can create their own degree program is one of the biggest problems of that university. Evergreen is the only university I know where you really could major in underwater basket weaving! Just take a few art courses, a few oceanography courses and you're set!

Posted by: Greg J. on April 5, 2005 01:21 AM
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