March 18, 2005
Birthday Suit

My report on this morning's hearing in the case of Sharkansky v. Reed --

Judge Hicks denied my request motion to compel disclosure of the voter birthdates. But not without also expressing some misgivings and making some interesting observations. I'll try to get a transcript of his on-records remarks, in the meantime, these are the main points as I understood them:

* He acknowledged that there was a "collision" between the Public Disclosure Act which requires broad disclosure and the elections statute which has broad exemptions.

* Acknowledged the legitimate concern about identity theft and, in his words, the fact that "The Lady doesn't want to tell her age"

* Expressed dismay that the exemptions to the Disclosure Act are "mushrooming", both in statute and case law.

* Said that this is an important issue that should be "put on the table" for public discussion.

* Seemed to suggest that he hoped somebody would appeal the decision, but ultimately he didn't feel that RCW 29A.08.710 was sufficiently vague for him to rule against it at the Superior Court level.

Again, I'd prefer not to have to ask for birthdates in the first place. I'd prefer that Sam Reed and Dean Logan and the rest of our election officials would just do their jobs and clean up the voter rolls without pretending that the electorate has the tools to do this. I can't afford to pay for an appeal out of my own pocket, but I wouldn't mind appealing in order to force the two issues of (a) cleaning the voter rolls and (b) defending the Public Disclosure Act.

There was one bright spot. I see that the Attorney General's Office doesn't believe that the former Attorney General is really the governor. Take a look at the signature page of the "Order Dismissing Action".

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at March 18, 2005 06:50 PM | Email This
Comments
1. What would it cost to appeal?

Posted by: ChuckJ on March 18, 2005 06:58 PM
2. And one very not-so-bright side. Looking at that same signature page, the Attorney General's Office doesn't seem to think that Rob McKenna is really Attorney General either. It is one thing to keep using all the consumer protection brochures that have Christine's name on them. It is quite another to have your Assistant Attorney Generals generate a pleading on their word processor, and put down that your predecessor is still Attorney General -- especially when you were sworn into that office more than two months ago.

Posted by: Richard Pope on March 18, 2005 07:00 PM
3. Stefan,

How much for the appeal?
Estimate?
I've donated twice and will continue that, but I might be able to do a little more, am retired though and I live on that and my VA disability.
It's for a great cause.

Posted by: sgmmac on March 18, 2005 07:01 PM
4. Pardon my crudeness, but Stefan's comments make this judge sound like he lacks stones. Sounds like he didn't want to upset anybody.

Posted by: Huckleberry on March 18, 2005 07:13 PM
5. There's ANOTHER bit of unexpected good news here- a judge who states an issue should be put before the people! Imagine that! We, The People, through our elected representatives, making law! Wow! RADICAL concept, think it'll catch on???

Posted by: Chuck Miller on March 18, 2005 07:30 PM
6. I too will donate. Just give us a signal to start.

Posted by: E.W. on March 18, 2005 07:40 PM
7. Since I have been reading SP for about four months now and have not hit the tip jar yet, I would certainly be open to a contribution to the appeal fund...

Thanks for taking on this issue. I hate to admit I voted for that totally incompetent Sam Reed. He and his cronies like Dean Logan are a discrace. Oh, what am I saying... we had the "most accurate election in state history" and it was a "model to the world." Can I barf now?

Posted by: Tucker on March 18, 2005 08:31 PM
8. What if we submitted to the SOS the names of those we question, which having birthdates would resolve? For example, here in Yakima County there are numerous instances where there are two individuals, same name, same address, different reg dates, but they are female. If they were male you could assume they may be junior and just failed to note that, but people don't generally name females that way. In the instances I have found it may be notworthy to include the fact that these are generally hispanic names, which...maybe they do name their females Jr. I don't know, it just seems curious.

Posted by: Hanna on March 18, 2005 09:16 PM
9. Hey Hanna;
why don't we just round them all up, those with those Hispanic names and ship to France? Darn fereners wanting minimum wage.

Posted by: danw on March 18, 2005 10:06 PM
10. don't count me as a big Sam Reed fan...but I just can't see a loss by Reed last Nov as a net gain...not after what the other Dems have done.

And yes, SS is to be commended for his efforts.

What really bends logic is that the Rossi camp, the state Rep office, and SP et al are portrayed as quixotic, tilting at windmills, when in this case, it is the windmills that are dysfunctional. Gilbert and Sullivan were less topsy-turvy.

Posted by: scott158 on March 18, 2005 10:10 PM
11. danw - typical.

Posted by: Hanna on March 18, 2005 10:19 PM
12. Stefen
What $ Amount needed for appeal? If we all knew how much maybe it could be raised.
Call the next witness

Posted by: Keith on March 18, 2005 10:42 PM
13. That signature page IS pretty amazing; this long after Rob McKenna was sworn in as AG. But I would not attach a lot of significance to it; i.e.: Likely all it means is that Even an Assistant AG (pun intended) can punch the wrong button on his PC once in a while. And keep in mind that Jeff Even is as I understand it the lead attorney in the AG's office on the Election Contest; expect he is more than a little busy these days.

If nothing else I give Jeff Even credit for being one of the senior attorneys on the AG staff that is actually willing to talk directly to citizens when they call the AG's office. I managed to get him on the phone for a couple minutes a few weeks ago, when I called with a specific question on a local election issue; he was very helpful.

Methow Ken

Posted by: Methow Ken on March 18, 2005 11:13 PM
14. scott158 - You got it right. the windmills in this state being supposedly tilted at are dysfunctional windmills - politically, this state is a laughing stock, next to California, in fact alot of leftists think it is cool to emulate California; land of fruits, nuts and plenty of flakes. I see Arizona as a better "role model" of a state to emulate.

would be nice to see certain left-leaning caucasian flakes - troll types get their wish and go live in Canada, France - or a number of other countries that they like better than the USA.

Posted by: KS on March 18, 2005 11:17 PM
15. KS:

Those liberal flakes and nuts would likely be as surprized as you would be to learn that the while the BC "Liberal" party has the name liberal, it is actualy the party of the right. The part of the left are called the "New Democrats".

GO figure!

Posted by: DeadWood on March 19, 2005 12:15 AM
16. I would contribute, too. This is an imporant case -- if we can't get the info, there may never be an accurate vote count in this state again.

Posted by: BillFitz on March 19, 2005 12:22 AM
17. If everyone thinks the EFF and SP numbers are correct then why don't they also believe the total gives a 3.7% error rate? (at last count)

Posted by: Mark Beyer on March 19, 2005 12:51 AM
18. The appeal is $250. Transcript is $5 a page. Recall Reed case is in appeal with Supreme Court; that's how I know. I agree. Stefan should appeal. Even signing for Gregoire instead of McKenna says it all. :-)

Posted by: martin ringhofer on March 19, 2005 06:13 AM
19. From: Bill Varney [mailto:bvarney@co.grant.wa.us]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 4:19 PM
To: martinringhofer@aol.com
Subject: RE: Voter Request - Cleaning up the voter file

Dear Martin

I am responding to your request that I submit a file of Grant County’s voter registration list to the INS and the IRS for them to compare to their data base and identify non citizens who are registered to vote.

The Public Records Act allows you to request copies of public records, but does not give you the ability to require me to submit our registered voter data base to another agency.

This issue is being considered by the State Legislature and there are some proposed bills being considered.

I have discussed this with the Secretary of State’s Office and was informed that they contacted the INS several years ago regarding this issue and got nowhere with them.

I understand there is a law requiring the INS to verify or ascertain the citizenship or immigration status of any individual but it doesn’t say that we can send a large data base for comparison.

As you probably know, the state is developing a statewide voter registration system.

I was told that the state will probably be contacting the INS after the system is up and running and discussing this issue with them again.

I think it is better to have the Secretary of State’s office deal with the INS for the entire state than have individual counties contacting the INS.

I also want to see the outcome of any bills that may be passed by the legislature during this session.

Bill Varney

Grant County Auditor
PO Box 37
Ephrata, WA 98823
509-754-2011 ext. 333

Posted by: martin ringhofer on March 19, 2005 06:27 AM
20. Another volunteer here for contributions to an appeal fund. Reversal would allow shining bright lights into deliberately murky depths.

Aint an informed electorate better than a bamboozled one?

Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on March 19, 2005 07:48 AM
21. The "birthday suit" just shows that the emperor has no clothes!

Wake up, SPers! Stripped of window dressing, Sharkansky just told you that the judge says that RCW 29A.08.710 *specifically* does not allow the public records request (that is, the judge "didn't feel that RCW 29A.08.710 was sufficiently vague . . . .").

So, you've got a specific legal prohibition against getting the private info that Sharkansky wants. Wake up -- you're not going to get it! (Oh and by the way, I'm an experienced attorney who's worked litigation cases for 10 years -- I know a thing or two about this.)

By the way, where are the so-called conservatives who are allegedly against "judicial activism" -- do you think the judge should just *ignore* the *specific* legal prohbition on giving out this information, by creating a judge-made exception? Sounds like legislating from the bench, doesn't it? But don't worry, because as I said earlier, you can dream of appeals all you want, but you're not going to get a panel of appeals court judges to ignore the statute any more than this judge is going to.

Happy windmill-tilting. I probably shouldn't be writing this, because my real hope is that as many Repubs as possible keep pushing this Rossi and Rossi-related stuff for as long as possible, in a futile effort that only weakens y'all for the next several elections.

Posted by: Mike on March 19, 2005 08:27 AM
22. Stefan
I'll pledge $100 towards the futile effort that Mike refers to.
Call the next witness.

Posted by: Keith on March 19, 2005 08:46 AM
23. Mike
Why do you waste your time reading SP? Unless you are worried about the Election Contest I wouldn't think you would spend any time here!
Call the next witness.

Posted by: Keith on March 19, 2005 08:53 AM
24. I am curious as to the status of the discovery process vis a vis the Rossi lawsuit. My understanding at this point is that once the judge has ruled to allow a trial to proceed, there will be an established schedule and process for discovery during which the county will be forced to produce any and all records and materials. Normally, a defendant would be required to produce the records as they existed in the "ordinary course of business," meaning in their original condition as used for their primary purpose.

The County has a much greater burden than any ordinary defendant because of the public trust, and public officials can be held to account for anything that "looks" like misconduct or fraud.

I would be surprised if spoliation of evidence respecting the binder and other discoverable materials are not a major issue as well as failure to comply with statutory requirements to maintain the records in a reasonable condition.

I agree that an appeal is important for obvious reasons, but even if one does not take place, the materials sought by Stefan will inevitably be produced.

I too support the appeal and will contribute what I can.

Stefan: Good effort and thanks very much for your stick-to-itivness.

Posted by: Amused by liberals on March 19, 2005 10:15 AM
25. Stefan,

After review of RCW 29A.08.710, I must grudgingly agree that Mike is correct when he says that it specifically disallows the public records request made, and that you're not going to get a panel of appeals court judges to overturn Judge Hicks.

While the reasons for the limitations are altogether unclear, the statute was constructed to limit disclosure.

“The voter's name, gender, voting record, date of registration, and registration number. The address and political jurisdiction of a registered voter are available for public inspection and copying except as provided by chapter 40.24 RCW. No other information from voter registration records or files is available for public inspection or copying.”RCW 29A.08.710 (2)

Age as a primary determinant of voter eligibility will have to be discovered during the pre-trail discovery process.

We really didn't need the short resume from Mike, his surly attitude gives him away. Nevertheless, an over reaching attempt to obtain voter information is not an effort to encourage judicial activism.

Mike hopes for things that will resolve contrary to his interests. His side is wrong, our case is stronger every day, the pressure is building, and Rossi will be our Governor.

Posted by: Amused by liberals on March 19, 2005 10:57 AM
26. Mike, I think the point of Stefan's suit is that election officials have declared that it is the electorate's job to police the voter rolls. This sets up a direct conflict with the RCW cited: if the electorate is responsible for ensuring voter eligibility, then ipso facto they must be given access to the relevant information.

Unless of course it is the responsiblity of our election officials to ensure that only eligible citizen residents cast votes (which I had always supposed was the case before said officials declared otherwise...). I can only assume that this was the implied meaning of the statute.

Posted by: Patrick on March 19, 2005 12:00 PM
27. http://soundpolitics.com/NewHolly1638PageForgotToSignCrop.jpg

Apparently, the poll book (which is a public record) contains the month and day of birth, but not the year. Presumably, the content of the poll book sheets is determined by a WAC regulation issued by the Secretary of State Sam Reed.

Since county auditors thereby release the month and day of birth (but not the year) as a public record, you should at least be able to force Sam Reed to release this same information on a public records request -- and in a statewide database CD format. You should ask the judge for reconsideration on this issue at least.

Posted by: Richard Pope on March 19, 2005 04:28 PM
28. Patrick --

You claim that because "election officials have declared that it is the electorate's job to police the voter rolls," we have "a direct conflict" with the specific law against giving out citizens' private information.

That's not the way it works. Statements by public officials about the way that the laws work don't change what laws require. (Can you imagine if it were otherwise? What if "election officials" claimed next week that the electorate has "absolutely no responsibility" to help catch improper voter registrations? Would Shark's suit then have no merit and be properly dismissed? And what if then, a week later, they reversed themselves -- or said something vague that could be read either way? Is Shark's suit then reinstated -- or half-reinstated?)

The point is, the law says what it says. It's clear, and there isn't another LAW on the books that can be read reasonably to contradict it (if you think I'm making that up, read the Republican AG's response to Shark's complaint). If the law needs to be changed in order to better promote voter-checking, then the LAW can be changed -- by the legislature or by an initiative. But you can't just set up a conflict with a law and choose to ignore it on the basis of what any public official said in the last several weeks (or over any time period).

Keith --

You ask, "Why do you waste your time reading SP?" I would ask you the same question! As for me, I like seeing what the other side thinks -- even when it makes no sense. Or, I should say, *especially* when it makes no sense. Then I know how little we've got to worry about.


Posted by: Mike on March 19, 2005 07:28 PM
29. Mike
I am worried! My worry is that the people of Washington State are going to get stuck with the Same old election process which obviously is fraught with negligence and open to fraud. Though I prefer Rossi I see the true loser as the citizens of Washington State(along with Georgia).
You on the other hand are little worried! I have to ask; if you were worried, what would it be: That you lose Christine, That the election process gets cleaned up, or both?
You know as well as I that if the rolls were reversed we would be in the same place we are today!
Call the next witness!

Posted by: Keith on March 20, 2005 12:31 AM
30. Keith,

Mike doesn't care. He is obviously smart enough to know the election results are uncertain. He wants power any way he can get it.

Posted by: Amused by liberals on March 20, 2005 09:28 AM
31. Take a small town in Eastern Washington.

1,000 residents. 800 US citizens; 100 immigrants with green card; 100 illegal aliens w/o green card.

Of the 800 residents, who are US citizens, 400 register to vote; the other 400 don't register to vote for reasons of their own.

Of the 100 immigrants with a green card, 50 register to voted and sign the oath that they are a citizens. Likewise, 50 of the illegal aliens register to vote because they are not required to provide proof of citizenship.

In this example, 500 people are registered to vote. An election is held and 300 turn out to vote. The 300 are made up of the following:

[1] 150 are US citizens registered to vote
[2] 50 are provisional voters who never registered to vote; nobody knows who they are
[3] 25 are dead people who were registered at the time they died
[4] 25 are felons or convicts who where registered before they became a felon or a convict; they served their time and never had their privilege to vote reinstated
[5] 25 are immigrants with a green card, who registered to vote
[6] 25 are illegal aliens who registered to vote

Candidates in this scenario require 151 votes to prevail and win the election.

Candidates who receive 149 votes lose.

In this example, there are two candidates for Mayor: There is Dee Dee Tossof and Tina Havealot.

Tina Havealot gets 155 votes.

Dee Dee Tossof gets 145 votes.

Question #1: Who wins the election?
Question #2: How many people should have been "entitled" to vote? Why?
Question #3: Should each vote cast be worth 1/300th?
Question #4: Was anyone's vote stolen? If yes or no, why?
Question #5: Should every vote count? If yes or no, why?
Question #6: Who should win this election and why?
Question #7: What should happen with the outcome of the election, and why.

Posted by: martin ringhofer on March 20, 2005 10:00 AM
32. Take a small town in Eastern Washington.

1,000 residents. 800 US citizens; 100 immigrants with green card; 100 illegal aliens w/o green card.

Of the 800 residents, who are US citizens, 400 register to vote; the other 400 don't register to vote for reasons of their own.

Of the 100 immigrants with a green card, 50 register to voted and sign the oath that they are a citizens. Likewise, 50 of the illegal aliens register to vote because they are not required to provide proof of citizenship.

In this example, 500 people are registered to vote. An election is held and 300 turn out to vote. The 300 are made up of the following:

[1] 150 are US citizens registered to vote
[2] 50 are provisional voters who never registered to vote; nobody knows who they are
[3] 25 are dead people who were registered at the time they died
[4] 25 are felons or convicts who where registered before they became a felon or a convict; they served their time and never had their privilege to vote reinstated
[5] 25 are immigrants with a green card, who registered to vote
[6] 25 are illegal aliens who registered to vote

Candidates in this scenario require 151 votes to prevail and win the election.

Candidates who receive 149 votes lose.

In this example, there are two candidates for Mayor: There is Dee Dee Tossof and Tina Havealot.

Tina Havealot gets 155 votes.

Dee Dee Tossof gets 145 votes.

Question #1: Who wins the election?
Question #2: How many people should have been "entitled" to vote? Why?
Question #3: Should each vote cast be worth 1/300th?
Question #4: Was anyone's vote stolen? If yes or no, why?
Question #5: Should every vote count? If yes or no, why?
Question #6: Who should win this election and why?
Question #7: What should happen with the outcome of the election, and why.

Posted by: martin ringhofer on March 20, 2005 10:01 AM
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