But, this idea of allowing a voter registration card as the only required ID to get a ballot, and a voter registration card does not require an ID - that IS insane. No wonder our state is in such a mess.

From an philosophical point of view, the state needs to change from a "voter intent" state to a "legal voter" (or some other more palatable term) state. This is the roote of the problem - the idea that we need to maximimize the number of people that vote, and maximimize the number of votes (e.g., some people can vote twice or more), and that anything that might discourage ANYONE from voting is to be avoided.

I'd like to see SP talk more about how we need to change this underlying philosophy.

Anyway, keep up the good work. We all owe you for all the work you've done to bring the truth to light

My preference would be all computer voting. There would no absentee voting unless out of state. Absentee voting would be very difficult. Identification with drivers license would be mandatory at registration and vote site. Proof of citizenship would be required at registration. This will never happen.

I have become so disturbed, exhausted, and disenfranchised by this election madness that I could honestly kiss this state goodbye and not miss it a bit. The politicians here are bad enough; the electorate is the most uninformed and obtuse that I have ever seen.

I moved here because of the quality of life and the ability to find a high-tech job. But I can find a high-tech job in many places. The Democrats' theft of the Governor's race has seriously affected my opinion of Seattle, King County, and Washington State. And now this madness? All mail voting with no Photo ID required? When will we be able to elect someone who actually represents us?

I'm becoming more disillusioned every day. This sucks.

I live next door to Oregon which has this kind of insanity...they've had all kinds of problems..most of which you don't read about in the "dead fish wrapper"...the Oregonian.

The Atlanta Doc is just one example of many that we have problems with now due to absentee balloting. I know of Oregon residents who vote in Clark Co.,but I will not challenge their status, especially after the ruling in KC against Stefan's brave challenge.

We need a total re-registration with proof of ID, a birth certificate of passport, and less ability to register people in front of Kmart &/or Target...FEWER people voting absentee and more face to face ID at the polls.

Fraud:

1 a : DECEIT, TRICKERY; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : TRICK

see www.m-w.com

You might not like what the Dems are doing, but that doesn't mean they are encouraging fraud. Or should I start arguing that everything Rossi does encourages theft? It would make for an interesting arguement, I agree, but don't you have a better arguement than this?

Your definition says it EXACTLY!! Wake UP!!

I was spending my Valentine Eve, February 14th, 2005, listening to the Election Task Force at Highline Community College. I heard many experiences of election workers and observers who has a chance to voice their experiences and told what does went wrong in Washington Governor’s election.

I also had an opportunity to express my experience regarding the election, which went chaotic in King County with illegal votes, include dead people votes, felon votes as well as double votes.

I was shared my experiences, when I was volunteer as one of hand recount at Boeing Field as well as at MBOS facility, which the two location was doing the same job, but didn’t have the same procedure and the procedure was changing almost daily.

I was suggested for a statewide “standard” procedures of counting ballots, and elimination of all Absentee ballots, except of the military services.

Vote by mail is the license of vote fraud; Democratic system is about participation in the election process, to pick and choose our own candidates, not other people pick and choose for us. We need to keep the election has some meanings for generations to come.

We should learn form Iraqi’s election, January 30, 2005, millions were turning out to vote at the poll despite the death treat and suicide bombs.

Otherwise, would this be an unconstitutional poll tax?

All mail balloting is the exact opposite of what we should be doing if we want to fix this mess. Our leftist legislature though is panicked to be seen doing SOMETHING and this is it. What they'd do if they were serious is clear the voter roles, require positive ID for registration and voting, and restrict absentee ballots. Don't hold your breath for any of that though...

In corresponding with legislators in both districts prior to the election about issues that interest me (some in the 16th district know a little about me because of campaign involvement), I discovered by way of their replies that some of their staff were convinced my family was in the 16th district.

If there was a system designed to inform each voter exactly what issues and candidates would appear on his/her ballot(s) weeks before the election, as vote by mail does now, I for one would be more than happy to travel the few miles to a voting place with appropriate identification to cast my ballot(s).

Apparently you are confusing 'encouraging fraud' with 'putting procedures in place which will make fraud easier to commit and more difficult to prosecute'.

Certainly no politician is going to come out and say 'Hey, everyone, vote as often as you'd like!'

But is there anything in those initiatives that makes you believe LESS fraud will happen? Anything that makes fraud MORE difficult to commit? That's our point.

If you didn't notice, I just called your statements about 'encouraging fraud' a 'straw man'. You can look that up on m-w.com, but I'll save you the time: 'a weak or imaginary opposition'.

Wouldn't SB 5499 Sec. 28 basically allow Auditors to withhold certification documentation until after the election contest deadline has passed. Thereby ensuring that if any fraud or gross errors are found in the county documentation, it is too late to do anything about it.

(When I visited KC Elections, I didn't see hundreds of secure mail slots for the safe delivery of ballots & drunk checks to residents. Does that mean that Dean, at this difficult time, must hand deliver the mail & mail-ins to residents when they stagger home, or does he meet residents half way? At Spins, the Red Door, and other half-way houses? Inquiring minds want to know.)

Remember all the people who registered at private post office boxes? How many times did they register, at how many addresses, under slightly different names?

I'm not instigating anything or even playing devil's advocate, but if anyone has any information on problems with Oregon's mail voting system I would love to hear it. I know I could sure learn more.

"Any person who intentionally or knowingly votes or attempts to vote more than once in this state in the same primary or general or special election, or who is registered to vote in another state and who votes or attempts to vote in this state, is guilty of a class C felony, punishable under RCW 9A.20.021.

Since state wide voter registraiton databases are required by HAVA to be in effect by 2006, it shoudl be easy to find double registered voters.

Paul Berendt seems to forget that mail in voting is 'Hell' on job security if you work for the King County elections department! Funny...How the legislature seems to forget all of the absenteee ballot problems in recent history that caused resignations, termination, threats from the DOJ over late military ballots, duplicate mailings, late and missing mailings, felon printing,processing,mailing and sortings.....

Oh yeah.....an all mail voting system is the way to go....or so say's the Governor of Oregon who may or may not actually BE the governor of Oregon..no one will know - because his state votes all absentee - and the fraud can be rampant! (But it's obviously in his favor....)

I can now think of tons of ways to register to vote in more than one place and NEVER get caught by a computer or even human review of voter lists. I hesitate to list those ways - could give trolls and others ideas! ;-)

I wasn't confused, my point was that The Minnow was. If you have problems with the planned reforms, argue that, but to say that they "encourage fraud" is to simply demagogue the issue. Heck, since to this date absolutely no fraud has been shown, perhaps we should just stop using the "f" word on this site, since no one actually means it.

It is just a shame that Republicans hate election reform more than they love our troops, and that we are not making changes (an earlier primary date) which could help with most of the problems Deborah cites. This anti-military, anti-American behavior should not be allowed.

I think I can officially call you a 'moron' now. Your logical panties are all in a bunch, JDB.

Here's what you said earlier:
"You might not like what the Dems are doing, but that doesn't mean they {the Dems} are encouraging fraud."

Here's what you said above:
"If you have problems with the planned reforms, argue that, but to say that they {the planned reforms} "encourage fraud" is to simply demagogue the issue."

You see the flaw in your logic, your lack of consistency? At first you claim that Shark said the DEMOCRATS are encouraging fraud. Then you argue that stating the REFORMS encourage fraud demogogues the issue.

If you read the Shark's first paragraph, it states that the pieces of legislation will institutionalize and encourage election fraud. I don't believe this 'demogogues' the issue at all. If the statement was that the Democrats were encouraging it, which is not the case, maybe you would be correct. But it isn't, so you're not.

As to fraud - how can you say none has been shown? There have been cases of double-voters. Is that not fraud? Oh, I ACCIDENTLY voted twice. I didn't know it was against the law and I didn't realize it at the time! How about the non-citizens who signed their registrations that they WERE citizens and then voted? Is that not fraud? How about the dead voters? Who filled out THEIR ballots? Are these examples NOT deceiving or misrepresenting, which is in YOUR definition of fraud?

Wrong, JDB. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

You never even answered my question:
"But is there anything in those initiatives that makes you believe LESS fraud will happen? Anything that makes fraud MORE difficult to commit?"

And your statement about Republicans hating election reform more than loving our troops, following on your accusations of demagoguery, is precious. Your logic flows like hard cement.

I agree. It doesn't matter much at this point anyway since 70 percent or so of voters vote by mail. Bringing in the remaining 30 percent which require all of the polling stations isn't going to change anything. Plus, it eliminates the provisional ballot issues.

I couldn't agree more, Larry. People around Seattle often like to say that a high percentage of the population of the area has a college degree or higher. I wonder if that is just a made up statistic, or if perhaps those college degrees are all in Women Studies, because Seattle is just plumb stupid.

It doesn't matter what most Seattle people studied in college...they still have Seattle Public School roots! They are brain damaged for life!
We do know - from recent photos, that some university kids are majoring in marxist-style criminal behavior...Oppressing the freedom of speech of military recruiters on campus.....

Liberals/Progressives/Socialists are so incredibly damaged and oppressive in their ignorance!

Glad to see that you are so confident in your arguement that you lead with an insult. Well and truly met old friend. Oh wait, I've read your arguement..., the insult is really all you have. And it wasn't even that good of an insult. Pitty.

My statements are consistent. If Mr. Sharkasky had headlined "Legislature offers only false reforms" I would argue the issue. But no, he headlines it "State legislature encourages election fraud." That is BS, and I call it on that.

As to your examples. Take the following scenario:

Person A signs up for vote by mail, and then moves two months before the election, a ballot, by error, gets sent out to both homes. Person B moves into Person A's old home, and gets the mistaken ballot. Person B opens it without noticing who it is addressed to, votes, thinking the ballot was ment for them, and then send it back. Person B does not actually go and votes at the polling place as they show, since they voted by mail.

Not an impossible scenario. However, in this case, note we have 1) a double vote, 2) an overvote, 3) an illegal vote, 4) but we actually gained two votes that correctly show what those people, who were both eligible to vote, voted.

Net change in the election. 0.

Dead voters (and, we have, what, five so far in the state) and the two alien voters? No, not fraud. Illegal, yes, but not done in an attempt to change the election. I'm actually amazed that so far no one has found a single case. I would expect that before all of this is said and over that there will be five people who purposefully received two ballots, or maybe more, but three of those five will be pro-Rossi. That is the way these things have trended so far.

And dear Deborah, where did you get your fine learning? What is the source of your conservative/right wing/facistic education that makes you the lovely openminded whole person that you are?

Oh yeah, and Larry, the last paragraph, that's called satire. I'll send you a pamphlet, but it is the use of humor to show how foolish an arguement is. But since you agree that such arguements are foolish (my point), you will undoubtably point out such problems when your side uses it. There might be hope for you yet.

I didn't expect to change your mind, but I was hoping you'd have a stronger comeback.

Your logical machinations to explain away the fraud already found as simple mistakes are quite humorous. Ever heard of Ockham's Razor?

Notice the crux of your example - KCEC sends two ballots to the same person. How interesting.

And the fraudulent votes are illegal, but not fraudulent? 'Not done in an attempt to change the election'? Hah. Bu!!sh!t. I voted (once) in order to change the outcome of the election. So did you (I hope), JDB. Everyone votes in order to change the outcome. You do it once, and you're a legal voter, and it's all good. Vote twice, or vote when you're not supposed to - and it's fraud. Easy cheesy.

And I stand by my comment that the Washington State electorate is the most uninformed and obtuse that I've ever seen. I believe much of it has to do with the insular, socialist, and liberal education many residents of this state receive. And then more liberal idiots move here - birds of a feather flock together.

Oh, and by the way - you STILL can't answer my question! Why is that? This is the third time I'll ask:

"But is there anything in those initiatives that makes you believe LESS fraud will happen? Anything that makes fraud MORE difficult to commit?"

That's the crux of this entire post and discussion, which you either can't read or want to avoid. You apparently are so morally offended by the headline of the post that you can't deign to answer the question - how do the proposed reforms make fraud LESS likely??

Ball's in your court, Einstein.

If I drive 70 in a 25 zone, I am committing an illegal act, but not fraud. Illegal does not equal fraud.

Yes, in my example (which isn't that hard to tear apart if you had cared to really think) there are errors. Again, these do not equal fraud. I am not denying, nor have I denied there were errors in the system. I will state that no one has shown fraud.

I will also state that the double votes are the most troubling, but the GOP only claimed 40 of them, and that number, like the felon number, has come down dramatically when people actually checked. Assuming even that there are 20 authentic double votes, these were not necessarily fraudulent votes.

Another example. Person A gets their vote by mail ballot. Person A gets a second ballot (for what ever reason, the County had to reprint because of an error, mistake in the software, wrong ballot delivered to the wrong address), not knowing what to do, they send both back in, assuming the County will sort things out. Or, how about this, Person A gets mail in ballot, then accidentally sends it in, having not voted (Person A's five year old wants to help Person A and puts everything in the mail one day before Person A had a chance to fill in the ballot). Person A goes and votes provisionally at the polls. In either of these scenarios you get double votes, although in the second you do not get an illegal vote. But in neither case is there fraud.

And perhaps we should be a little more careful with language. Yes, we all vote in an effort to effect the outcome of an election. Fraud requires the showing that you voted in a way to subvert the election. Mistakes and errors, even those in violation of the law, do not amount to fraud. Every felon that voted? Illegal, but not fraudulent.

Yes, the system should be improved so that these errors don't happen, get caught, or happen even less than they do now (and we are talking, at best, 40 out of 2.9 million votes, net gain, 20 or approximately .0007%).

To anwer your question, one of the measures has identification requirements. You might not think they are enough, but they are something. Second, vote by mail ties a ballot to an address. Oregon has been voting via mail for nearly a decade now and with no problems.

I have provided you with an explanation, it is not mine to provide you with an understanding.

Nice pithy final statement. Who taught you that, your ethic studies professor at University of Colorado-Boulder? I'm glad I'm not depending on you for understanding, because I'd never get it.

Your analogy of speeding is another straw man. If you attempted to convince the police officer you were someone else, or presented someone else's ID, you would be committing fraud. Please see your definition of fraud.

Here's the oath everyone signs in order to register to vote:

RCW 29A.08.230
Oath of applicant.
For all voter registrations, the registrant shall sign the following oath:

"I declare that the facts on this voter registration form are true. I am a citizen of the United States, I am not presently denied my civil rights as a result of being convicted of a felony, I will have lived in Washington at this address for thirty days immediately before the next election at which I vote, and I will be at least eighteen years old when I vote."

So your examples are fraud. Non-citizen? Intentional misrepresentation. Fraud. Voting from two addresses? Fraud. Someone voting for the deceased? Fraud. Felon? Fraud.

And I'm pretty durn sure that double-votes are fraudulent also. If you state that no one has shown fraud, it's just because you don't want to see it.

Discussion over. For me, at least.

We are talking something specific here. Let's say you are a felon who comes off of parole, and you think you have your rights fully restored. You sign the oath. You have not violated the oath, you are not guilty of fraud, but if your civil rights have not been fully restored, an illegal vote. I would bet out of 2.9 million people voting, at least 20 actually move on the 29th day before the election, and yet only voted once. Are you saying we should round them off and send them off to jail? No fraud, but violation of the oath. Technically an illegal vote, but I be every court in the country would rule you should count it.

People are careless and people make mistakes. The last time you bought a car, did you read the sales contract fully? I vote absentee, and I doubt I have read the whole thing, I know I am who I am, I know I'm signing. I like to think I am careful, but I could see myself making a mistake and signing the wrong ballot. Hardly makes me a felon.

I could see people signing the wrong line. I can see poll workers messing up piles of ballots when there are so many. But, honestly, if you think there was a conspiracy to steal the election, you haven't actually participated in politics in this state. Heck, even the Repulicans in this state aren't that well organized.

Tell me that all mail voting is not an invitation to FRAUD.

We should do the opposite, make the voters go to the polls and only be able to get an absentee ballot for a single election at a time. When they get there, they should have to show Photo ID and Sign the poll book. With modern computers, it would even be possible to verify signature at the polling place by connection to the registration database.

Perhaps we could do what they are doing in Europe. ID via fingerprint. If it is accurate enough to pay for groceries, it ought to be good enough to validate a voter. If you lose the finger that you registered with, you could re-register with another finger. If you attempted to vote more than once--the system would not allow you to receive a ballot. Only if you passed validation would the device issue a ballot. This is available technology and maybe Mr. Gates folks would be willing to integrate it into a secure voting system.

For mail-in balloting, there are adhesive labels that create a readable fingerprint without requiring any chemicals. Again, a machine could read and verify or reject all which did not appear in the registration database.

Further, the fingerprint would allow verification of felon status to be made using AFIS. So you would know if the individual's voting rights had been restored.

I know I am just a dumb Okie, BUT providing more opportunity for wholesale fraud is not the way to improve the voting accuracy.

But maybe the Democrats are afraid of being given the finger(print).