March 14, 2005
Dean Login in the hot seat

Dean Logan will appear before the King County Council at 9:30am.

I'll be there. You can also watch the proceedings on King County TV

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at March 14, 2005 09:13 AM | Email This
Comments
1. Get Him! Don't forget your home training!

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 09:46 AM
2. Looks like everybody at the meeting gets a whitewash packet from Snohomish "Bagdad" Bob Terwilliger, Pierce County, Seattle PI and Times, etc.

Can't wait to see what's in the packet. I am sure Stefan will post.

They are starting the usual mantra "Yes there were errors, no they were not a big deal."

Lies saying they were comparable to previous elections, etc.

Makes me want to vomit.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 09:54 AM
3. Listening....King County "Errors on the side of inclusion..."

Posted by: VaCSProf on March 14, 2005 09:54 AM
4. Unreal, they are referencing sources that support the irrational opinion that everything went perfect well, but of course there is no reference to the opposing views such as what you read on Sound Politics.

Impossible to have an objective discussion about what really happened by submitting arguments from only one side of the discussion.

Praising Logan over and over saying he is the best elections officer in the state. Unreal. How come there were more ballots with errors than the margin of the victory?

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 09:58 AM
5. Repeating the mantra, human process, of course there were errors, human process, of course there were errors.

Sites new numbers of 374 says that this is even more accurate. Of course, not only is this number misleading as Stefan has shown, but it is still more than double the margin of victory.

Talking now about partisanship. Elections too important to let partisanship bacome a factor. I suppose he's referring to Paul Berendt crying to try and get ballots counted and getting affidavits only from Democrats as the example of partisanship.

What a joke.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 10:03 AM
6. Dean Logan sounds pretty wimpy. No wonder he's a Democrat.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 10:05 AM
7. Jeff,

Isn't it amazing how the margin of victory has no relevance to them?

Posted by: VaCSProf on March 14, 2005 10:05 AM
8. HOW does he know that there wasn't ballot stuffing? How is he so sure.

By the way there weren't attorneys and observer at every pollsite!

Posted by: Joe on March 14, 2005 10:13 AM
9. Same old stuff. "We're addressing this issue" & "in the future".

Nauseating, to say the least.

By the way, do you know how many people believe that it is over? I find myself having to inform people frequently that it is not "over." I then direct them to soundpolitics.

Robyn

Posted by: Orange Robyn on March 14, 2005 10:17 AM
10. Provisional Ballots had a (removable) label to prevent it from being put in the accuvote machines. Not THAT is what I call reform.

Posted by: VaCSProf on March 14, 2005 10:17 AM
11. The entire April Special election in King County will be done entirely by mail! Oh, that ought to help ;)

Posted by: Orange Robyn on March 14, 2005 10:20 AM
12. Unreal, Logan is proud of the fact that we will be able to conduct elections entirely by mail. That will make them more secure for sure. NOT.

Bottom line, Democrats just don't want secure elections. Democrats want to be able to influence the outcome, just like they gerrymander legislative districts to take advantage of minorities, etc.

It's all a scam where the Democrats prey on the poor and uneducated to advance their policies of elitism, racism, wealth redistribution, unions, etc.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 10:21 AM
13. Cultural reform warrants more financial expenditure. Anybody else think that a lot of money is going to be spent to no avail?

Posted by: Orange Robyn on March 14, 2005 10:22 AM
14. Notice the reason they need a building (money) is to conduct the elections by mail.

Posted by: VaCSProf on March 14, 2005 10:23 AM
15. the above post should've read "cultural change" not "cultural reform".

OOh, now "focus groups".

Now let's see what kind of questions are asked of Dean Logan?

Posted by: Orange Robyn on March 14, 2005 10:24 AM
16. VaCSProf, yeah, what margin? Margin? Huh, what's that? All of their remarks assume that these errors really don't matter. In fact, they use the margin as a selling point by saying that the only thing extraordinary about this election was its closeness.

Whitewash.

Jimmy Carter would be proud here, this election was run just about like the election in Venazuela, where Chavez won, gee, that was a surprise.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 10:24 AM
17. No mention of the fact that the date that the ballots were mailed was the last possible date to send out ballots to overseas and military voters. Coincidence?

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 10:26 AM
18. Larry Phillips line of questioning is shameful! He's not the least bit interested in finding out the truth. Phillips would get along just fine with Dan Rather.

Posted by: Larry in Renton on March 14, 2005 10:28 AM
19. Jeff B. "Yes there were errors, no they were not a big deal."

I would amend that statement to read, "Yes there were errors, no they were not a big deal, because the Democrats retained the governorship." If Rossi had ended up with a 129-vote lead with the same set of circumstances, there would have been such wailing and the gnashing of teeth from the Democrats never seen before after any election, including the Gore 2000 fiasco.

When (and if) Rossi wins in court, be prepared for the wailing to start, and continue for a very long time.

Posted by: JG on March 14, 2005 10:30 AM
20. I'm done watching, this is a joke. I applaud Stefan's ability to hold his nose while wading through all of the fecal matter that KC Elections keeps dishing out. It's stronger than my ability to do the same. I can't take any more of this self congratulatory whitewash. All the foxes discussing how well things are going in the hen house.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 10:30 AM
21. Hey! What the hey -- where the hell do they think they get the right to have a mail in only election -- ???? -- who asked who -- obviously the Bolshevik bastards are upping the ante and trying to deflect attention from their putred fraudulent election tactics by piling on more of their G-D fraud BS --

Posted by: Bill on March 14, 2005 10:35 AM
22. So this is the WA state 'Rat version of a hot seat? Sounds more like a lovefest. Face it, with the 'Rats in control, when it comes to meaningful, substantive changes, nothing, and I mean nothing, will be done. This whole "electoral reform" charade that Fraudoire pushed was nothing more than a scam of the taxpayer's dime. Those who willingly participated in it and thereby gave it credibility, especially Sam Reed, should be forever scorned and shamed. It will always be "next time, we'll do it right", but, "next time" never comes, Rossi and the Republicans are shut out in the cold, and the 'Rats will continue to win election after election, with the help of fraud and cheating if by chance a Republican comes close to winning.

Posted by: Interested Observer on March 14, 2005 10:36 AM
23. Orange Robyn By the way, do you know how many people believe that it is over?

I have seen and heard this; including someone stating an opinion in my local newspaper, that he or she was glad that Rossi had decided to quit contesting the election. That was news to me. Perhaps more could be done to inform the public of what is actually happening.

Dragging this case out for so long I think is not good for the state as a whole, but the Demos seem to be only interested in their party agenda and not in the interest of all Washingtonians. The Republican Party should be pushing harder to get this case to trial sooner rather than later.

Posted by: JG on March 14, 2005 10:47 AM
24. JG - I agree "The Republican Party should be pushing harder to get this case to trial sooner rather than later."

Posted by: Orange Robyn on March 14, 2005 10:56 AM
25. I just listened to Jane Hague's questions for Logan. Is she a Republican or a Democrat?

Posted by: MIMike on March 14, 2005 11:11 AM
26. I suppose that "election reform" means making sure that those "wotten wepublicans" can't adequately contest elections in the future. Wow, what a great plan, mail-only ballots. I can't believe that anyone would believe that the real election reform is to hand the elections committee a bigger whitewash brush.

Posted by: Sopater on March 14, 2005 11:26 AM
27. Pelz is such a moron..

Posted by: Ted on March 14, 2005 11:27 AM
28. Jane Hague's a replublican...

Posted by: Brent on March 14, 2005 11:29 AM
29. Hmm... fud fud fud... Since Citizen Competency Tests are racist tools of slavery according to CM Pelz, and voters should be allowed or encouraged to do whatever they feel like with the ballots, I happen to think that the ballot is ugly, so can I make my own ballot and mix and match methods how I feel? CM Edmounds seems to have no problem with that.

Posted by: mogura on March 14, 2005 11:31 AM
30. All this makes me sickeningly certain that when all this is said and done, millions of voters will be on one side, and the politicians, lawyers and judges will be on the other.
Guess who's going to lose.

Posted by: Barcroft on March 14, 2005 11:43 AM
31. Logan says they dont use "sharpies", they use black felt tip pens.

I'm sure he means well.

Posted by: someone on March 14, 2005 11:49 AM
32. This is a cluster f___.

Since when have we changed the name of King County to Martin Luther King County has Gossett just stated?

Trying to hold down my lunch while listening to this dribble.

Posted by: Bud on March 14, 2005 11:50 AM
33. Logan says they dont use "sharpies", they use black felt tip pens.
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE???????

Posted by: Bud on March 14, 2005 11:51 AM
34. When did Jane Hague switch parties?

Posted by: Bud on March 14, 2005 11:54 AM
35. Bud,
She is an extremely liberal republican!
Has been for a loooooonnnnngggg time

Posted by: Joe on March 14, 2005 11:58 AM
36. The title of this post will have to change to:

Dean Logan in the Batting Cage.

Never seen so many down the center slow lobs in my whole life.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 11:58 AM
37. A gaggle of cowards...plain and simple.

Posted by: dkpcowboy on March 14, 2005 12:08 PM
38. Did Stefan get a hardball in at all? Or was he blocked?

Posted by: Big M on March 14, 2005 12:12 PM
39. I can't help but ask, do these clowns get paid real money to engage in these circle-jerks? I mean, if all they're going to to is fawn over Dean Logan, let them do that in a Rat caucus somewhere, or some Rat-party-paid event. The public has no business funding these kinds of partisan stroke sessions.

Posted by: Interested Observer on March 14, 2005 12:13 PM
40. It originally was Rufus King county, named for a prominent Federalist and close associate of Alexander Hamilton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rufus_King The county was "renamed" in the 70's or 80's some time after MLK's death by those that hijacked his legacy. In any case, the 'crown' logo of the county seal is indicative of the governmental attitude espoused by neither Rufus King nor of Martin Luther King, jr., but was instead was fought by other of them. The legacy of King county suggests that their mutual sacrifices may indeed be in vain.

It's a sad day for the GOP when CM Fergeson and even CM Mao Constantine are more useful to get to the bottom than Hague, Reichbauer, and Dunn. Courtney Love Patterson is back in business though. CM Pelz did a slick job minimizing his footprint on the canvassing board, considering he hires or fires Dean Logan, who also sits on that board.

Posted by: Mogura on March 14, 2005 12:15 PM
41. Interested Observers,
Yes, all of the council members are paid over 100,000 dollars plus benefits to engage in these type of meetings!

Posted by: Joe on March 14, 2005 12:19 PM
42. The name of the county was declared to memorialize Dr. King in about 1986, which I remember because that's when I moved here and I was prompted to wonder what in hell I had gotten myself into. The original namesake, William Rufus Devane King, vice president under Franklin Pierce (here's some info: http://www.samford.edu/groups/amhf/King.htm) owned slaves and could not be tolerated.

Posted by: Carol on March 14, 2005 12:19 PM
43. Ok, so the 30 days before the election Logan "Doesn't have the authority" to remove names from the list, including fellons. However, you can walk in and vote in person up to 15 days before the election. Also, they do not prohibit ANYONE from registering if they've signed the registration form.

This implies any felon/alien/under-18 can vote by registering to vote in person beteeen 15 and 30 days from the election. Am I missing something?

Posted by: VaCSProf on March 14, 2005 12:21 PM
44. I hate to sound insulting but how did council member Edmonds ever get elected?

Posted by: Joe on March 14, 2005 12:24 PM
45. They keep talking about making instructions clearer to prevent provisionals from being put in the accuvote machines...what about the moveon.org types? Instructions don't fix that problem.

Posted by: VaCSProf on March 14, 2005 12:27 PM
46. Maybe by people too stupid to "follow the instructions".

Posted by: Mike on March 14, 2005 12:28 PM
47. Why do we need Chinese ballots???
They have been mentioned a number of times, but no one has explained why they are necessary.

Posted by: Barcroft on March 14, 2005 12:34 PM
48. Go to the King County Elections site. They have whole webpages just to support the Chinese voters in King County. There are no Spanish pages, no Japanese, none other than Chinese.

What is King County spending to maintain a set of webpages just for presumeably, non-English reading Chinese persons?

Posted by: Mike on March 14, 2005 12:37 PM
49. VaCSProf,

That's what I am wondering. If you just wait for the proper "window", it would seem anyone could vote in WA elections by going to King County. The MoveOn.org gang could send in busloads of out-of-state non-residents, "register" them to vote in King Co., using the Board of Elections building as their "home" address, Dean Logan would turn a blind eye to it, and 'Rats would get elected by landslides each and every election. So good people like Stefan would challenge their registration after the fact and maybe (note: maybe) get them removed from the rolls. But they could play the same game the next time around? So what if they were successfully challenged the first time? Would that count against them?

Posted by: Interested Observer on March 14, 2005 12:43 PM
50. Why are we using anything but English in any of our government publications?

Citizens, by birth or naturalized, should have a working knowledge of our english language. If they don't, they need to bone up on it.

If voters don't have a mastery of the english language, I would question their citizenship. And questioning citizenship, to quote Martha, "is a good thing".

Posted by: Susu on March 14, 2005 12:47 PM
51. No, it doesn't count again because the same window exists the next year. Some polititions are idiots.

Posted by: VaCSProf on March 14, 2005 12:49 PM
52. Sharpies are usually permanent ink, regular felt tips aren't (unless your kids get hold of them).

They should be using sharpies!

Posted by: Fred on March 14, 2005 12:54 PM
53. I've watched the proceedings off and on throughout the morning (thanks Stef!).

I have no credentials in forensic psychology, but I see Dean Logan repeatedly tugging (with his fingers) at the corners of his mouth, glancing away as he answers, and stroking his (balding) hair while he answers.

These are all Psych 101 clues that he's lying. Anyone who can substantiate this?

Posted by: BadjerJim on March 14, 2005 12:56 PM
54. I've watched the proceedings off and on throughout the morning (thanks Stef!).

I have no credentials in forensic psychology, but I see Dean Logan repeatedly tugging (with his fingers) at the corners of his mouth, glancing away as he answers, and stroking his (balding) hair while he answers.

These are all Psych 101 clues that he's lying. Anyone who can substantiate this?

Posted by: BadjerJim on March 14, 2005 12:57 PM
55. Simple King County Elections caveat: If you produce a report that shows something you don't want people to see, then don't produce it. If it doesn't exist, you won't have to give it up under PDA.

Posted by: Mike on March 14, 2005 01:00 PM
56. Radio stations are being attacked....

Posted by: VaCSProf on March 14, 2005 01:12 PM
57. Julia Patterson is upset that we are using our freedom of speech!

Posted by: Larry in Renton on March 14, 2005 01:13 PM
58. Blinking frequently is an indication of lying, too, I believe I've heard before.

Posted by: Greg M on March 14, 2005 01:15 PM
59. Too bad we can't put Dean Logan on the witness stand in a court of law. It appears that Larry PHillips is finishing up with pulling his puppet strings on Dean Logan.

Posted by: Larry in Renton on March 14, 2005 01:15 PM
60. Did Phillips just remind everyone and even threaten lawsuits against critics of this election fiasco?

Posted by: Mike on March 14, 2005 01:18 PM
61. Hey, Mike. I think that's what I heard, too. I'm using my freedom of speech, just like everyone that calls into a talk radio show, or speaks out in the media.

Posted by: Larry in Renton on March 14, 2005 01:21 PM
62. Does anyone know if a transcript will be made available?

Posted by: grump on March 14, 2005 01:21 PM
63. CM Patterson, the talk radio stations subservient in lockstep with your party are responsible for attempting to whitewash this disater, and your singling out of one entity is as partisan an attack as the ones you criticize, and you do so from the chair you sit in as a representative of your district at large.

Posted by: mogura on March 14, 2005 01:29 PM
64. That last bit with "do you lie" was utterly pointless and a farce. That has no place or merit except in sworn testimony or deposition, and then only with penalty for perjury. For CM Phillips to do that completely discredits the validity of the exercise.

Posted by: mogura on March 14, 2005 01:34 PM
65. Things that I learn from this briefing...

I learned that the procedure for casting Provisional Ballots changed since I last worked an election. In addition to folding PV's, the inspector (or poll book judge?) affixes a label to the ballot, covering up some bar code on the ballot, and preventing it from being accepted by the AccuVote machine. As somebody mentioned elsewhere, there seems to be nothing preventing an aggressive, moving on kind of voter from pulling the label off and feeding it through.

I learned that the AccuVote machine will accept a ballot that has been creased. The instructions to poll workers to fold PV's seems to be mostly a waste of time. The thinking might be that poll workers will see a PV voter walking up to the AccuVote machine and stop them before they feed it through.

I learned anyone with an absentee ballot can enter any polling stations and insert the absentee into the AccuVote machine. This is disturbing.

Dean Logan and the other suits seem to have a different impression of what is going on in the polling places than what is actually occurring. The stacks of ballots are not always secured. The AccuVote machine is frequently left unattended. The training that I experienced did not really stress the security aspects of the job. I believe their thinking was, and is, that serious looking poll workers who look capable of preventing fraudulent voters might be intimidating to some voters.

Unfortunately, the solution that Edmonds and others are zeroing in on is voting by mail. This is madness.

Dean Logan and, who was it, Pelz or Phillips (?), pointed out that the 3 known instances of bereaved survivors voting on behalf of the dearly departed did so by forging signatures indistiguishable from the sigs on file. Question... what is to prevent an abusive or subversive spouse from stealing a living spouses ballot? I mean, we all know how eveil and abusive husbands are... why would we let them vote twice?

Posted by: Huckleberry on March 14, 2005 01:36 PM
66. Dean Logan is not "Sharpie" enough to know what a "Sharpie" is!

After analyzing this election for many months, I now think that the malfeasance comes in to play such that Logan, Sims, Phillips, Huennekens, et. al. did not perpetrate fraud themselves, nor was there even a gross amount of organzed fraud, so much as they enabled distributed fraud to occur at just enough of a level in the form of known dead voters, known felons, improperly handled provisionals, etc. so as to render the result of the election indeterminiate with respect to the margin.

The crime is that in a highly partisan and exculpatory manner, they have denied that their efforts to cast the election in a good light, move quickly towards certification, etc. all allowed the election to be declared valid, even in light of a total amount of discrepancy that overshadows and outweighs the margin of victory.

Had these officials been acting in accordance with their sworn duties, in good faith, and mostly out of common sense, they would have instead halted the certification of what anyone can plainly see is an election that is too close to call given the acknowledged humanity of the process and close result.

Instead, they chose to deny the evidence and now have to continue defending themsleves and reiterating within their own echo chamber that the election was not only less than flawed, but actually quite good.

This is a sad day for truth and justice.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 01:42 PM
67. This "whitewash" comes as no surprise. Unfortunately for Logan and Huennekens, their depositions WILL NOT resemble this "love-fest"...not even remotely!

The devil is in the detail. This was merely a surfacey overview. The LEFTIST mantra that "because Logan had such sterling "front-end" controls in place at precindts AND with absentees, there was absolutely no way any errors or neglect occurred"!! They say this out of one side of their mouth....

Out of the other side of their mouth they are saying "this is a very HUMAN process"!

WHICH IS IT??

I see this boiling down to illegal votes and errors/neglect in KingCo precedures resulting in unaccounted for ballots.

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on March 14, 2005 01:46 PM
68. I'd like to find out WHERE Chris Vance said in the papers TODAY that he knew Dean Logan was going to lie (as Larry Phillips said he read)? I couldn't find it either the Times or the PI. Perhaps in the whole cover-up scheme of things today Larry Phillips also made this up in his mind. This whole meeting aside from a few bright moments of Steve Hammond and a couple of others, was a complete public relations circus.

Posted by: Larry in Renton on March 14, 2005 01:46 PM
69. The British experience with postal votes (as they call mailed ballots) is instructive. They tried them last year as an experiment and immediately had nearly all the problems that we have with them, including fraud and intimidation.

What is especially discouraging is that the Labour Party plans to continue using postal ballots -- in spite of the fraud, intimidation, et cetera.

(I have done some posts on my personal site on their problems, if you want to know more.)

Posted by: Jim Miller on March 14, 2005 01:50 PM
70. Larry - My guess is that Larry Phillips spun statements from Chris from this morning's interview on one of those evil "talk show radio's"...it's easy to do and no one (outside of folks like you) are going to call him on it :)

Posted by: grump on March 14, 2005 01:56 PM
71. Of course the answer is to go to mail-by-vote only.


There's altogether too much involvement by the plebes in the voting process. If King County counts 10,000 more ballots than were sent in, who's to know?

Don't you trust Ron Sim's handpicked election supervisor?

Posted by: South County on March 14, 2005 02:08 PM
72. Dear Fat Lady,
Please sing!

Posted by: Dave on March 14, 2005 02:16 PM
73. JeffB:

Unfortunately, from Dean Logan's point of view, the election was not too close to call. Essentially, Gregoire won King County by 200,000 votes or so. That margin is far greater than the margin of error in the election. Therefore, Dean Logan can say comfortably, that Gregoire was the winner in King County. The problem occurs because Rossi won the rest of the state by the same margin.

While I believe that Gregoire's margin of victory in King County was "technically augmented" by one or several methods, Logan's position is actually defensible when one considers only King County.

It would appear that King County has found a perfectly legal method to dictate the outcome of an election.

Posted by: MIMike on March 14, 2005 02:34 PM
74. MIMike,

I see your point, but in the immortal words of Paul Newman as Cool Hand Luke, "Callin' it your job, don't make it right boss."

Logan wants us to believe that it all went well enough for King County, because, as we know, they delayed the reporting of King County numbers until all other counties had reported. They were able to verify that KC would have enough votes, they had to go and tap into previously untapped wells of votes such as the affadavit votes, etc. but they just managed to squeak enough votes in to match the rest of the state. Now, if they had also been as aggressive with filtering out the felons, dead, mishandled provisionals, etc. then it would have been another story.

Anyone who says anything other than that the result is indeterminate, is in denial. We simply don't know who won, and only because there was a knee jerk rush to certification for the sake of certification is Gregoire in office.

While the courts may let it stand, that doesn't make it right or objective.

That's why the conservatives are so upset, there's been an injustice. A more honest, and less partisan group at KC Elections would have been more forthcoming with information regarding all of the flaws and done the right thing and asked for a runoff or new election.

But they are not interested in honesty, objectivity or justice, they are only interested in maintenance of power. This will come back to haunt the Democrats in 2006 and 2008. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 03:30 PM
75. There is one good way to start to fix this process. Do everything you can to defeat Sims by voting in someone that is competent and let that person begin to fix the process. Let's see, maybe David Irons?

After he is elected, the first order of business would be to give Dean Logan the boot.

Unfortunately, we will have to wait 3.75 more years to fix the mistake we made when we re-elected the current Secretary of State.

Posted by: jaybo on March 14, 2005 03:46 PM
76. Let's see.....It should be state law that counties have to certify and report their election results inversely to their size i.e. King County always has to report first.

Just a thought....

Posted by: timman on March 14, 2005 03:56 PM
77. This KingCo PR Circus was merely an effort to "pump up" Dean Logan for his real test in the depositions. Dean looks mighty fragile to me. Sims and his gang probably pumped Logan with some testosterone to give him the courage to even do this orchestrated BS today.

When Logan and Huennekens are deposed, I would recommend they both bring a box of DEPENDS because with the grilling they are going to get, they will need them.

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on March 14, 2005 04:24 PM
78. IO: The MoveOn.org gang could send in busloads of out-of-state non-residents, "register" them to vote in King Co., using the Board of Elections building as their "home" address, Dean Logan would turn a blind eye to it, and 'Rats would get elected by landslides each and every election.

Yes! That is what I've been trying to say!! There are hundreds of registered voters using the county buildings as their residence address and list their mailing addresses as out of the country! There is virtually NO tie to the state of Washington with these voters! They are not military - they are residents of Italy, Canada, France, China, Japan, Israel.. etc.... Yet - they were able to register to vote in 2004 in our elections and most voted absentee!! There is no way to tell if they have ties to this state or this country!! And Logan seems just fine with that!

Todays meeting was absolutely disgusting! I was ill watching it!
I have something for that hungover Patterson...:

No government agency can have this many descrepancies, errors and misunderstandings of RCW and WAC's without intention..If they are intentional - they are fraud! FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD. King County committed Fraud in the November election and probably has been committing Fraud for years!

Yo! Julia! Did I say the *F* word?? Yes I did! Fraud. And you should probably not even be on the council but are there due to a previous fraudulent election! Shall we check into that?? I think so!

This entire exercise in county government is shameful! It's a machine that has gone bad. People need to wake up because this machine is now on steroids.

Rossi....The time is now or the people lose everything.

Posted by: Deborah on March 14, 2005 04:54 PM
79. I repeat what I have been repeating for some time.

ROSSI, ARE YOU READING THIS? - IT IS TIME!

Posted by: DeadWood on March 14, 2005 05:38 PM
80. King County must really think we are stupid. This meeting today was a joke, a farce and a smoke screen. Just like the task force that was sent around the state to ask our opinions on election reform. That was done just to try and pacify us. By what they are doing in Olympia it is obvious that don't care one bit what the residents of this state want.

Well, let's keep yelling our heads off because I for one will never accept this election process as it stands now. I just hope everyone remembers all of this when our representatives are up for re-election. That is the only thing they care about. Getting re-elected.

Posted by: Vicki on March 14, 2005 06:16 PM
81. that tongue-lashing they gave Steve Hammond was ridiculous. Apparently, we're supposed to observe suspicious stuff and just AVOID the word fraud, even if it looks like it.

and when they asked Dean Logan if he knew of anyone who'd committed fraud and he said no, I thought that they'd had to fire some of the counters early on for things like feeding the same Gregoire ballot through the counter fives times. am I right? Anyone remember that kind of stuff back when?

Posted by: Michele on March 14, 2005 06:36 PM
82. So, Deborah, Vicki, Stefan, et al., where do you go when you know the system is corrupt and the deck is stacked against you? Do you keep trying to make it work somehow, from within, or throw it all out and start over somehow?

This fraud is now open and exposed for all to see. The fraud has been perpetrated in broad daylight and those who engineered it are laughing in our faces. They throw it back in our laps and laugh and say, live with it. They are shameless, brazen, in-your-face cheaters and liars and they hold self-congratulatory circle jerks like this latest meeting to pat each other on the back for what a good job they did perpetrating the fraud and laugh at everyone else who is on the outside looking in.

What are the options for the honest people in Washington State? Civil disobedience? Taking it to the streets? Open rebellion against a corrupt government? I'm just asking questions, here, not advocating anything, because, to be honest, I'm at the end of my rope. As a non-Washingtonian I have suggested things like those in charge at the federal level take actions (in effect sanctions) against the state because of it's fraudulent leadership. But beyond that, if the people of the state are content to sit and accept the fraud and illegitimacy, what courses are open to us as civilized and law-abiding citizens?

Posted by: Interested Observer on March 14, 2005 06:37 PM
83. The people who run our government for the people -are supposed to be chosen/elected by the people (the majority of eligible, legal voters) The people choose these government representatives based on the promises made during their candidacy -and- based on trust that these candidates will follow the will of the people and especially the constitutions of the state and the nation.

This is how it's supposed to be......This is the spirit of our nations democratic process!
If this process becomes vulnerable and broken through deception, error, fraud, etc... then the people of this state are not represented by candidates chosen by a 'true' majority! Thus our entire democratic process is void. Those who hold office are NOT truly those who the people voted for in majority!

What I'm saying is - these candidates who are now in official positions, are usurping the will of the people of this county and state and may well be in their position by means of fraud in past elections! This could be why they are hesitant to truly reform our election process and instead have created a huge opening for future fraud via an all absentee voting system! If this is the case...we can expect more foot dragging with reform, more oppressive bill passing in haste, and future threats of legal action against those who continue to question their authority....

I think it's time to call....*Broken Arrow*.....to the Feds.....

Posted by: Deborah on March 14, 2005 06:39 PM
84. Deborah, I understand your point, I'm just not sure what the feds can do. The political theory is that in elected representative government the representatives are the people. When the representatives are no longer the legitimate representatives of the people, the wheels come off the theory. You no longer have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. You have a monster, an unaccountable golem who answers to no one other than those who pull the strings.

Historically, federal intervention in state matters has required some Constitutional issue as a lever upon which to base action. Perhaps this is now the time for Rossi to take this to the USSC on the basis of the Equal Protection clause. It's clear the political/administrative process is too corrupt in WA to make a difference.

Posted by: Interested Observer on March 14, 2005 06:48 PM
85. I would suggest that there is a great deal going on behind the scenes. I doubt that Rossi and the GOP are merely bystanders. I further doubt that the national GOP is merely watching from afar.

When you go to battle against someone, you don't advertise how you're going to kick their teeth in. There's a saying that a broadcaster in DFW uses..."I don't care what anybody says about me, as long as it's not the truth."

The point is this...as long as the 'RATS believe that the GOP will be rolled, they will be woefully unprepared for the real battle in court. My hope and belief is that all will be happily surprised at the arsenal that the GOP will unleash.

Posted by: dkpcowboy on March 14, 2005 06:54 PM
86. I understand your point dkcowboy! I am well trained in how to NOT telegraph a punch...heh...

But instinct is telling me that a window of opportunity is closing soon with regard to Rossi's momentum. I'm seeing a lull that is extremely dangerous to public interest in election reform. The people of this state have had their hopes up many times in the past (that someone will challenge those who are taking over our state by questionable means)- only to have those hopes crushed repeatedly by lack of action and reform - followed by a reign of *in your face* oppression and usurption of the peoples will.

If any state in the union becomes vulnerable and broken in it's election process - then the security of the entire nation also becomes vulnerable! This is how nations are invaded, constitutions and rights scrapped and citizens are held hostage to communist, anarchist, tyranical, etc... rule. Currently, we are seeing property rights trampled, personal rights banned, mandatory socialist programs installed, religion scoffed, our military and police officers villianized, parental rights yanked,...etc...
This is not America! (Land of the free - home of the brave) Our freedoms are being taken and our brave are made out to be evil monsters! Something's happening here.....

I would love to believe that Rossi et al...are secretly winding up for a knock-out punch.....but my senses are telling me that something is wrong - stalled...Too much time is passing before we are hearing anything....Too many facts about the fraud, errors, etc. are surfacing without a challenge other than from a couple of brave reporters and of course, Stefan....

I am very patient. Sometimes to a fault...If I'm getting the willy's here.....it cannot be a good sign....

Posted by: Deborah on March 14, 2005 07:33 PM
87. Are the WA Repubs or Rossi people giving ANY indication when this will finally go to court?

Posted by: RalphR on March 14, 2005 07:43 PM
88. I just sent off an email to the Rossi campaign and ask that they get on with the court challenge and request a hearing date from Judge Bridges. They should have discovered more than enough to have a preponderence of evidence here.

I also suggested that they mention the word fraud in their case. The fraud that took place was chaotic, yet organized on the outside (moveon.org) & and election workers were possibly unknowing or accomplices or encouraged in certain precincts merely by not enforcing election laws because they received no direction from the top - what a surprise ! Seems like the word fraud can only strengthen their case, even though they don't have to prove it. FYI - The address is info@dinorossi.com

Posted by: KS on March 14, 2005 07:56 PM
89. I agree with Deborah.... the DemonRATS evil strategy is to just let this thing drag on forever until the election of Fraud-oire finally just gets accepted because of being dragged out. Whatever happened to a speedy trial concept? Obviously the DemonRATS are in no hurry to get this resolved in court!!! Rossi and WA Repubs have a limited window of opportunity and need to make things happen!

Posted by: RalpR on March 14, 2005 07:59 PM
90. Would you believe that Election fraud isn't even King County's core compitency? If you want to see where they've been really "creative," look no further than their land use departments in DDES and KCDOT. Down there they do incredible things and have been crossing lines for a long time, while the PA's Office, Sheriff, the Ombudsman, and even some of our elected judges all look the other way.

You want to know why they're coming after you for taxes to fund tens of billions in unfunded road projects? Look no further than the magicians in our own planning departments that now, with the use of manipulated computer models, can make any gridlocked road able to take more cars. You get to pay to fix it later.

You want to make a point that all of this corruption is enough? Go down to a land use hearing and support the poor folks whose neighborhoods are being destroyed with fraudulent road studies that our development agencies are creating in the employment of developers. Tell the King County Council to listen to the people and not government planners who get paid by developers.

To some of us, what everyone is seeing in Elections is old news. It's just more of the same. It's too bad no one was listening when we and others were fighting similar corruption in other parts of King County, but also under Sims and previous executives. With a little help, maybe we could have cleaned some house and we wouldn't all be going through this today. Maybe Gary Locke would never have been governor, and Sims wouldn't be executive today.

Myself, I'm just cynical now and expect history to repeat itself, because we really never learn anything from our mistakes.

Posted by: Mike on March 14, 2005 08:08 PM
91. The Republicans are not quietly gathering information. If they were, Stephan would have seen more requests for the Binder. He saw only one request from a reporter who will do nothing public with it if history tells.

The Republicans have rolled over and this is not the Ukraine. The streets remain empty. The Press even more empty.

Posted by: PGM on March 14, 2005 08:21 PM
92. It's been ages since we've heard from the Republican side. Meanwhile, time marches on and the people lose interest. I haven't heard when the next hearing is or what's happening with this lawsuit. I had hoped the good stuff we heard about how thorough Judge Bridges is was true but I'm losing faith fast. It's time to hear from the Rossi camp. A timetable, anything! Back at the ranch, sweet Christine is settling in. Ugh.

Posted by: CP on March 14, 2005 08:23 PM
93. fight fight fight! Are u listening Dino? full re-registration right after we throw out the former attorney general now masquarading as governor! Its now or never. we can't quit or be nice!

Posted by: eastkingcountyrednecklogger on March 14, 2005 08:26 PM
94. We aren't losing heart....we are burning! Especially after viewing that crap today on KCTV!

To witness such ineptitude on the council - ie; Patterson, Phillips, Gossett, Edmonds, Constantine... It's infuriating to know these people are in position's above the cashier at the local Wendy's Drive thru window! Their indifference to the will of the people with regard to the election fraud is revealing...They are foolish - but they aren't stupid! They know exactly when to plead ignorance and when to change the subject to social sympathies....(ie; the race card - Gossett's "Martin Luther King county" quip and another's reference to Chinese language ballot instructions...)They seem about as relevant to the election problems as any other hot-button issue would be if it were injected into today's charade (I'm suprised no one brought up abortion and Gay Marriage as excuses for voter error!!) They throw in the race card as though saying people of color or races in the minority are too stupid or bogged down with legal fees from committing felonies to be able to legally vote! That we should feel sorry for them! And in that assumption - they (Gossett and the other race-card liberals) are themselves - racists!

I am more determined now than I've ever been to see this crap exposed and cleaned up once and for all! I know I have plenty of company in this determination - from all over the state. This company is growing daily. But Rossi is the key! It is with him and his contest that the door is opened to the people to remove those who have failed to serve and represent us. Confidence in the election process must be restored before anything else can happen.

This is where we are stalled.

Posted by: Deborah on March 14, 2005 09:16 PM
95. The whole proceeding was clearly very scripted. I am sure that all of the Democrats had met with Logan and everyone had discussed the questions in advance. So Logan really only had to take heat from Irons and a few other Republicans.

Many of the very partisan and very Logan sympathetic liberals asked Logan what appeared to be harder hitting questions, to keep up the guise of really wanting to get to the bottom of anything that went wrong with the election. Clearly though, Phillips et. al. are anything but hostile towards Logan. And often, the "hard hitting" questions were designed to lead to a line of questioning that then conveniently difused any doubts regarding that particular topic. They might want to try for an Emmy.

What a sharade. I can't wait to read Stefan's report. It should be very interesting.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 14, 2005 09:58 PM
96. I have more & more respect daily for the Ukranian people...they came out enmass for what they believed in. There were so very many demonstrators..and they wouldn't let it go til they had made a difference..til they got a new election.

None of this will be cleaned up til the people demand it...lots of people..in one accord.

Posted by: Susu on March 14, 2005 10:01 PM
97. Deborah, RalphR, JeffB, Mike, Susu Express your passion and heart to fight on ! to the Dino Rossi camp at their email address. Stefan will post a summary of this sharade tomorrow. Remember that "Evil occurs when all good men do nothing".

Posted by: KS on March 14, 2005 10:09 PM
98. I am fairly certain that Federal intervention cannot occur until the conclusion of the Court case. If everyone posting here emailed info@dinorossi.com , there will be some noise...

The Feds may well come in even or especially if the Supremes screw up the decision - will see how they deal with the one on Gay Marriage - won't we !

Posted by: KS on March 14, 2005 10:13 PM
99. Thank you all for a good laugh. I don't know which is funnier, the paranoia or the depression.

A few corrections:

Jeff B. In the first recount, Governor Gregoire was ahead until the last county, Benton County, reported. I'm sure you were up in arms about this Republican county holding out until they were sure of enough votes to fraudulently give Dino Rossi his tainted win. Thank goodness for the hand recount, right?

Let's get it straight, King County is the biggest county by far, it is hardly surprising it took the longest, especially when parts of its count were held up by court action.

Second, to everyone, from Merriam-Webster Online (www.m-w.com), since you all seem to have troubles with this word:

Fraud:

1 a : DECEIT, TRICKERY; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : TRICK

See, it needs to be intentional. You can't have chaotic fraud. In fact, without intent, you can't have fraud at all. You can have mistakes, but if a person blows through a stop sign and hits your car, that is not fraud.

Number of illegal votes so far shown to have been fraudulently cast for Governor Gregoire: 0

If Rossi was smart, or any one in the GOP in this state, he woudl save his career by dropping his suit and saying he will work tirelessly for election reform. Instead, he is taking the big chance that he will be dragged down by the crazies who are surprised that 98% of the population of this state is not willing to take to the streets over a few errors that didn't really amount to everything. But, please, don't let me stop you from crying wolf..., this is getting more and more hillarious as times goes on. So forgive the shaudenfreude, and please continue

Posted by: JDB on March 14, 2005 10:14 PM
100. The previous post starts out "If Rossi was smart or anyone in the GOP..." then did a booboo on the word "would". Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Posted by: PC on March 14, 2005 10:31 PM
101. Lucky for us then that Dean Logan is trying to deceive people into believing that a precinct with a 15% error rate is "a model election".

I've seen 'wolf' called plenty of times on this election - and I have yet to leave without seeing tracks, fur, fangs and bad attitude.

Posted by: Al on March 14, 2005 10:32 PM
102. Hello!
Any Republicans awake out there?

Posted by: Keith on March 14, 2005 10:45 PM
103. Yeah, but not for long. I'm waiting for Shark to post on the Logan meeting today. I missed it on TV.

Anywho, going to bed now.

Posted by: Jason on March 14, 2005 11:19 PM
104. Thank you all for a good laugh. I don't know which is funnier, the paranoia or the depression.

Paranoia? Depression? More like...*ANGER* *FURY*!

And it's growing....JDB......(pssst...otherwise you would not be posting here...)
You HAVE to come here day after day - just to know where we are and what our moves are....You lose sleep worrying about it.... If this wait is frustrating for us - it is excruciating for you and your liberal buddies! Not knowing if your people will finally be busted out of office! Shamed by their deeds...tsk..tsk... I feel sorry for you! You must truly be a mess by now!

Don't go getting all depressed and paranoid on us! Hang in there! It's going to get very rough for you and your fellow socialist wannabe's very soon....We want you to see this to the end...(so we can have that priceless kodak moment...snicker...)

Posted by: Deborah on March 14, 2005 11:30 PM
105. JDB.
You illustrated fraud, deceit, and trickery. So far there has not been any allegation or evidence of a republican instance of them in Washington state. On the other hand, in this state for this election all the numbers and evidence indicates all that these interpretations are valid taint the results in the democrat majority areas of the state.

Deceit; the act or practice of deceiving, an attemtp to deceive, evidenced as lying about the certified numbers as is now apparent.

Fraud; imposter or cheat, a person who is not what he or she pretends to be.

Trickery; the practice of crafty underhanded ingenuity to deceive or cheat.

Distributed; to divide among several or many, to spread out so as to cover something, to give out or deliver especially to members of a group.

Examples under deceit and trickery; illegal voting, willful perversion of a judge's order by only collecting selected signatures, and political spinning and public grandstanding on clear issues.

The exact opposite of deceit; honesty, scrupulosity, scrupulousness, uprightness; candidness, candor, frankness, openness; forthrightness, straightforwardness

As you may notice, deceit is the only true way to describe the actions of the democrats in this election. The republicans have asked for and upheld the exact opposite of deceit. They want openness and straightforwardness in the election which the democrats are trying to prevent. Thanks JDB, yes, you made this topic's point quite nicely.

Posted by: Mark Beyer on March 15, 2005 12:06 AM
106. Fraud has a very, very high standard of proof in Washington State (7-point test).

It really does not help to have Rossi-supporters throwing the F----word around without proof.
I doubt we will EVER be able to PROVE Fraud...and besides it's not required in this election contest.
The Dems love it when you all throw the FRAUD word around in anger. If you haven't noticed, they knock it down EVERY TIME>
So knock it off---you look foolish.
Illegal votes are NOT necessarily FRAUD
So knock it off!!!!!!

Republicans are stupid to get sucked into using the F----word just like they are stupid using the LIBERAL word. The problem in Washington State isn't LIBERAL's. The problem is LEFTIST's & MARXIST's. Some of my conservative brethren need a vocabulary lesson.
Get rid of the FRAUD and LIBERAL words for God's sake!

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on March 15, 2005 06:00 AM
107. For a couple of hours yesterday morning, we were told black is white, night is day. The dem machine who put out these lies apparently have a free pass from the MSM.
The Times reports today the "mishandled-ballot tally grows" now to 660. I believe this figure to be much larger, but does anyone think it was the MSM who coaxed this figure out of the lying, stonewalling Logan?
Councilwoman Patterson, is not outraged over Illegal provisional ballots fed directly into machines by criminal poll workers. Rather,she takes the only media outlets who challenge this big lie (talk radio and blogs) to task for daring to question the BS that was fed to us yesterday am.
Did anyone hear a suggestion that a poll worker who was responsible for putting or watching provisional ballots being fed into a machine be fired? Sounded to me like they deserve our thanks and praise. Like I said, for a couple of hours, night was day and black was white. After all, the dem machine told us it was so.

Posted by: Brad on March 15, 2005 06:05 AM
108. From this morning's Times: "When the council discussed the mailing of absentee ballots to armed-forces members overseas, Councilman David Irons, R-Sammamish, said he didn't believe it was still an issue for County Council Republicans."

YGTBSM..... and he wants our support for County Exec? Perhaps, but only if a lot of us hold our noses....

Posted by: Red on March 15, 2005 06:54 AM
109. Do not put your hopes and trust too deeply into the Republican Party. In my view they are timid and soft. Its the people of this country who have my faith and trust. One small man, Samuel Adams, took on the powerful British Empire. Samuel didn't go to any political parties looking for muscle, he went to the people and talked to them. He alone, the Father of the American Revolution, understood what it would take to turn it around and move the people to freedom.
Sadly, most people wont do squat to end this unjustice. The Second Amendment was written just for this problem. It was not written for the collector, or the sportsman, nor for the NRA. It was written so that We The People could take back our government when it stop repesenting us and turned into a tyrannical power.
This fight is not the Republicans fight, it is ours alone. Do not look to the Republicans for justice, look at yourselves. Organize, plan, gather and move on it. All we want is a fair and just government. But never give up and never give in. It is up to you.

Posted by: Son of Liberty on March 15, 2005 07:05 AM
110.
The Second Amendment was written just for this problem. It was not written for the collector, or the sportsman, nor for the NRA. It was written so that We The People could take back our government when it stop repesenting us and turned into a tyrannical power.

Son,

I'm pretty sure this is not what the public schools are teaching our children...too scary.

Posted by: Huck on March 15, 2005 07:53 AM
111. Well - very early this am - I read down through this list and thought I would post an opinion I have had re: the WA State Republican party for many years - this opinion grew gradually and it has been my opinion for the last 20 years -- and I have read the last post here by Son of Liberty and that reminded me to make this post. The Rep party in WA in my opinion is and has been largely infiltrated and controlled - probably since the 1920's by moles from the Marxist DemocRAT party.

An example was (if I have the date right) I believe the next to last gov race where the Reps had 6 or 8 candidates in the primary -- duh -- there is no way that diffusing the attention of the voters across that wide of a selection could possibly lead to a win. Lock waltzed right back in - barely touched.

BTW - my mom told me over 40 years ago that when she was in high school in Wyoming in the 1920's that the University of Washington had a reputation of being a haven and hotbed of communists -- obviously the marxist mind rot is and has been endemic in Western Washington. Reading the majority of the troller's posts on this blog illustrates the extent of the mind rot that the kool-ade drinkers are suffering.

Posted by: Bill on March 15, 2005 07:56 AM
112. Bill: Was that before or after 1929?

Posted by: s-choir on March 15, 2005 08:25 AM
113. Before - why??

Posted by: Bill on March 15, 2005 08:44 AM
114. The seattle times today said the following:
"The dialogue remained civil. In contrast with strong Republican rhetoric in the past about King County goofs in the election, the toughest talk yesterday came from Democrats."
Please, someone tell me that that's not true. I heard Rep. Steve Hammond (R) from Enumclaw on KVI talking with Travis sitting in last night and that's not the impression that I got at all. That was echoed again this morning on KTTH with Mike Siegel in speaking with Chris Vance and Stefan.

Posted by: Sopater on March 15, 2005 09:07 AM
115. JDB,
I know that you don't have the ability to see where this is going. You know, all this anger about the election. You have to have your head buried deeply in the sand to not see the importance of what happened here. Things like this can turn violent. One of the reasons this hasn't happened yet, is that most people are waiting to see if the system is so broke it can't fix the problem. Most of us are hoping it will be fixed to everyones satisfaction, including the Democrats, who, if they are ever able to convince a majority of people to believe in their ideology again, can be confident that the election will be fair. Another reason is that most of us have lives, family, things we need to be prepared to risk if we rise up against this insult to our way of life. If there does not seem to be a groundswell of support of other people ready to rise up too, you would stand to lose every thing and have gained nothing for anybody. If in the end, say after the 2006 election cycle, things haven't improved, don't be surprised when you start hearing of the criminals who are supposedly elected in this state start dying. If you stand up for them you will die too. It will be my pleasure to pull a trigger on your traitorous ass. Now, go ahead and laugh your arrogant, self important laugh. You are so damn smart. Can you defend yourself physically, or do you do all of your fighting in court? A court stacked with your people, hardly fair. That would make you more or less a bully.

Posted by: REBEL on March 15, 2005 09:08 AM
116. Bill: What your mom was probably referring to was back in early 1900's radical Labor Activist Eugene Debs ran a big effort to colonize WA with like-minded socialists, so a lot of them came here. I think we see the remaining effects of that in Seattle proper!

Posted by: Michele on March 15, 2005 09:35 AM
117. JDB:

"Thank you all for a good laugh. I don't know which is funnier, the paranoia or the depression."

I guess I can empathize with you, JDB. Normally I don't gloat, but now you know how I felt on November 2, 2004. The funny depression of the left over their Commander, John Kerry, not being allowed to report to duty by the majority of the American people.

And of course, the misplaced paranoia of the Bush Administration these last four+ years - especially the comparisons to the Nazis. I find that funny because of the lack of any historical perspective whatsoever. Bush is giving freedom to tens of millions of people around the world, and when the left makes those paranoid assertions they drive even more people into our camp. Keep it up!

But rest assured, the outcome of our anger and fury will not resemble the outcome of your depression and paranoia. Republicans go to work - we get things done - and we don't wallow in misery like you folk.

Peace

Posted by: Larry on March 15, 2005 09:56 AM
118. The only thing worse than a hothead, is a hothead with a gun. The first step to victory is not to shoot your enemy, but to educate them, reason with them, talk with them. After all nobody has all the right answers, Republican or Democrat. If they refuse reason, than organize your side, strengthen it, big numbers are best.
Speak srongly, truthfully, honestly and carry a big stick.
And if that does not work, there are other ways, smart ways. But never, ever be unarmed or out gunned. Gun smoke is the last thing you want in the air. Reason and listening and best.
The first shot in the American Revolution (75 Americans faced 700 British soldiers) started it all, it is unclear who shot first, but my point is that we, Americans, were ready and willing to fight. We must still.

Posted by: Son of Liberty on March 15, 2005 10:04 AM
119. Michele - right - I am aware of that -- Western WA was a regular wilderness that attracted lots of that early 20th century socialist/communist crap -- IWW -- International Workers of the World -- Centralia Massacre and all that -- they were after the large population of recent European immigrants who were slaving away in the logging camps and coal mines. Always keep in mind that Marx's original targets were Britain and the US industrial bases. Also that socialism is nothing but communism lite -- a gateway mindnumbing and gelding to prepare the masses for the big internationalist takeover -- things were well in place during the Clinton years -- that is why the major panics over W's election and re-election and all the obvious anti-US retoric both in the US senate and Europe -- the curtain got pulled back a ways. And it has reached well into King Co. elections.

People in this country have got to wake up to the fact that the US Declaration of Independence and Constitution fly directly in the face of all the other power structures, monarchies, royalties, major religious power structures and all the other rotten ism's that the great rest of the other world has ever come up with -- for instance -- just 120+ miles north of here - the people are "SUBJECTS"

I remember when (maybe still?? ) the commie paper - Worker's World or some such name was sold on the streets of downtown Seattle.

Posted by: Bill on March 15, 2005 10:14 AM
120. Bill: Have you considered therapy?

Posted by: s-choir on March 15, 2005 10:23 AM
121. So how to keep the general public reminded that this is still going on and give them the correct data? How about a full page newspaper add? It would have to be done with someone with all current data so probably Stefan. This would be costly so we would all have to contribute. I believe the best way to do that would be to email Stefan directly with a promised contribution. Once he had recieved enough, he would then contact those people and have them forward the money to him. This way, if not enough was promised, no one would have to be concerned about where the money went and Stefan would not have to go through the hassel of returning it.

Posted by: Robert-in-Tacoma on March 15, 2005 10:25 AM
122. I would be willing to contribute for the full page add. That sounds like a great idea.

Posted by: Kirk on March 15, 2005 10:33 AM
123. Stefan,

FYI.

I'd be up for Robert-In-Tacoma's suggestion. We can easily raise whatever is needed to advertise.

Jeff-In-Tacoma-Too

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 15, 2005 10:36 AM
124. Robert-In-Tacoma's
Excellent idea. A full page every week listing all the facts and updates. This is the kind of thing our Founding Fathers did. Let them know we know the election was a FRAUD! Supported by the citizens of Washingtion, not a political party. Put the facts in front of them and let them chock on it, daily. We wont be cheated or ruled by any tyrant. Use the freedom of the press, use the freedom of speach, use it to our advantage.
I'll kick in some cash for that, count me in!

Posted by: Son of Liberty on March 15, 2005 10:49 AM
125. I keep seeing the occasional post by Dems that "all" of the so-called felon votes so far have gone to Rossi. It would stand to reason that the Dems would not want them added to the voter rolls. If this is so, how come Senators Clinton, Kerry, and Boxer, among other Democrats, are sponsoring a bill that would automatically reinstate the voting rights of convicted felons, nation wide, once they have served their time and are off parole (no mention of paying fines)? It does not make sense that a party would be so intent on getting this group of people back in the voter rolls if this was true. By the way, this is in violation of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution which gives this power to the individual States.

Posted by: Robert-in-Tacoma on March 15, 2005 11:02 AM
126.
  • Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
  • A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
  • Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
  • Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
  • Centralisation of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
  • Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
  • Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
  • Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
  • Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
  • Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

My first question is "how does the outline above differ from the Democrat agenda?" My second question is "Isn't the Republican agenda uncomfortably close to the outline, too?"

Posted by: Huckleberry on March 15, 2005 11:27 AM
127.
I now DECLARE, to you and to the world, that Man, up to this hour, has been, in all parts of the earth, a slaue to a TRINITY of the most monstrous evils that could be combined to inflict mental and physical evil upon his whole race.

I refer to PRIVATE, OR INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY — ABSURD AND IRRATIONAL SYSTEMS OF RELIGION — and MARRIAGE, FOUNDED ON INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY COMBINED WITH SOME ONE OF THESE IRRATIONAL SYSTEMS OF RELIGION.

- Robert Owen, "Declaration of Mental Independence," 1825

This also sounds familiar to my recently awakened ears...

Posted by: Huckleberry on March 15, 2005 11:38 AM
128. I am *so* all over supporting Robert-In-Tacoma's idea.

My e-mail is here and I would gladly help in time or money to make this happen.

We may not be able to get the MSM or the Democrats to stop lying, but we can do as our Founding Fathers did and educate the populous ourselves.

Posted by: lee egg on March 15, 2005 11:38 AM
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