1. It's kind of funny (in a sick way) that Bob Ts comments and opinions were not picked up by the Herald and was only quoted in the Olympian.

There is something about going to the polls to vote that is lost by mail order.

Posted by: swatter on February 24, 2005 09:51 AM

2. Even if the fraud problems could somehow be eliminated, there is a more fundamental objection to voting by mail: It effectively eliminates the secret ballot. Rather than leave a long comment, let me refer to my discussion at http://stromata.typepad.com/stromata_blog/2004/08/the_waning_of_t.html

Posted by: Tom Veal on February 24, 2005 09:58 AM

3. Sideshow Bob has more reason than most to be against going to an all mail in ballot format. Snohomish County just shelled out millions of dollars for the new, very nice electronic voting machines, which were paid for with a 20 year bond. Sideshow Bob has assured us that we can just sell the machines to someone on the East Coast for half price. Oh, goody!

Posted by: Timothy on February 24, 2005 10:17 AM

4. Exactly as many of us figured--under the guise of 'fixing' things, Dems will use the opportunity to make cheating even easier, hoping we're all too asleep to figure out we've been hoodwinked.

Posted by: Michele on February 24, 2005 10:20 AM

5. More and more ammo for us to completely change the color in olympia in 2006. Have we seen even 1 decent idea come from Olympia yet? Are these democrats NOT nervous? Someone needs to start a spread sheet on the voting records of these morons and use it as campaign material to show district voters just how irresponsible their DEmocrat has been.

Posted by: chardonnay on February 24, 2005 10:25 AM

6. You mean the voting machines that don't leave a paper trail, only a vapor trail?

An "all-mail" ballot? I thought women were allowed to vote? What did I miss?

Posted by: swatter on February 24, 2005 11:00 AM

7. I think that we all know what the results of "all mail" voting will be, no controls and all the fraud we can imagine.

Those of you in Skagit County or nearby should be aware that the SoS Sam Reed and company will be in the cafeteria of Skagit Valley College tonight the 24th of February from 6 Pm to 8 Pm for our take on election reform.
Come join us if you can

Jim

Posted by: Jim L on February 24, 2005 11:01 AM

8. I wrote to my representatives and voiced strident opposition to this bill. I hope that everyone else here will, too.

Posted by: dpmiv on February 24, 2005 11:06 AM

9. I trust Bob Terwilliger even less than I do Dean Logan.

This is why the Democrats are waning. They seriously believe that not only are no meaningful election reforms necessary, but that making elections even more easy to cheat is the way to curry favor with those on the other side of the aisle.

Hint to Democratic politicians: We had a little election last November, it didn't go to well, Washingtonions are not impressed.

Good luck in 2006 and 2008.

Posted by: Jeff B. on February 24, 2005 11:32 AM

10. How about instead of an all-mail vote, we have an all-male vote. Of course, I'm just joking; women should have the privilege of voting equal to men, but why not go back to the "only if you own land" restriction? What was the point of that restriction? If you owned land, it was more likely you were at least somewhat educated. You knew at least a little bit about civics and current issues. There are people who go vote for governor and state legislature positions that couldn't accurately describe the separation of powers between the two.

How about to vote, you have to show up to a physical polling place, show photo ID, and prove residency. Then in each race, to be eligible to cast a vote, you have to answer a couple multiple-choice questions about the office. Only people who have a vague understanding of what the office is and does are allowed to cast the vote. If, say, >70% of voters don't understand a given office, it gets dissolved until such time as a voter initiative restores it.

Posted by: Gryphon on February 24, 2005 11:58 AM

11. "The Voting Booth at the Kitchen Table"
Opinion Editorial by Bill Bradbury and Washington Secretary of State Sam Reed
The New York Times
Printed on August 21, 2001

Contrary to what some critics assert, voting by mail does not create new opportunities for fraud. Elections officials in Oregon have found no indication of increased fraud or undue influence during the two decades we have used the system. In fact, all-mail elections should be more secure than poll-site elections because every signature on every ballot is checked against that on the original voter-registration card. If the signature looks suspicious, the vote isn't counted until the voter is contacted and the signature is verified. This is a level of security that simply isn't possible at polling places, where signatures are usually not checked.

Posted by: dpk on February 24, 2005 12:35 PM

12. Oregonians vote by mail and haven't had near the problems that Washington State has had.

But then Oregonians don't tend to be as gullible to Republican rhetoric as do Washingtonians.

You might actually research how the vote goes in Oregon before making these sorts of silly claims.

Incidentally...anyone who attempts to vote twice in Washington or Oregon is going to get caught. So the idea that it's some sort of inherent problem is ludicrous.

Posted by: carla on February 24, 2005 12:45 PM

13. ...Is all-mail voting more expensive than at the polling place?

Personally, I REALLY want to be able to go to the polling place and cast my ballot so that is why I really don't like the whole emphasis everyone gives on absentee voting (even the Republicans are urging people to go on the "everytime absentee list!!!")

But: I always figured part of the reason for it was that it was cheaper. Nobody to pay to man the polls. No equipment needed, etc.

Posted by: Sarah of WA on February 24, 2005 12:46 PM

14. "If the signature looks suspicious, the vote isn't counted until the voter is contacted and the signature is verified."

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me dpk. Self appointed signature expert, Bill (the mail man) Bradbury, used the "signature verification" scam to keep Nader off the ballot in 04.

http://www.americandaily.com/article/2861

Just imagine how "smooth" our elections can be if they are "pre-cleaned". Just what you would like to see, right dpk?

Posted by: Splatter on February 24, 2005 12:59 PM

15. Carla the only thing ludicrous around here are the Trolls. Didn't you know? We just make stuff up to her the liberal lap dogs bark "proof proof".

Early and often - absentee voting fraud
National Review, June 17, 1996 by Rich Lowry
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n11_v48/ai_18399432

'Vote By Mail' A Formula For Fraud -- By Bill Sizemore (04/08/03)
http://www.americandaily.com/article/2860

FLORIDA ALIEN VOTER FRAUD
http://www.usbc.org/media/votebyaliensresponse.htm

Secretary of state denies claim Nader ruling was political
Bradbury thanks election crews, defends mail ballot
http://www.bend.com/news/ar_view%5E3Far_id%5E3D17998.htm

Task Force Report entitled To Assure Pride and Confidence in the Electoral Process
http://216.239.63.104/search?q=cache:PWf2gJPJK6QJ:www.lawrev.state.nj.us/election/electionM120301.doc+electionM120301.doc&hl=en

Posted by: Splatter on February 24, 2005 01:13 PM

16. Sarah of WA ---

The cost effectiveness of VBM? That is just a pro Vote-By-Mail-Fraud talking point. Even if there was some savings, where would it go? Maybe a fleet of VoteMobiles to pick up those poor hapless King County voters ballots.

Here is an excerpt from the Report I posted above.

"The experience with early voting in Texas is apparently more mixed. 1994 study found that early voting actually increased election costs in the largest counties, which offered extended hours and satellite stations, but maintained or decreased costs in counties that did not have to make such accommodations. Early voting seems to reduce election expenses only insofar as it is essentially the same as in-person absentee voting. A 1987 report noted that per-vote processing costs for absentee ballots are several times the expense for ballots cast at the polls. All three systems spread the administrative effort from a single Election Day into a couple of weeks, with savings in aggravation if not in cost."

I recommend reading the full report, Task Force Report entitled To Assure Pride and Confidence in the Electoral Process, url address above.

Posted by: Splatter on February 24, 2005 02:08 PM

17. Another problem with mail voting is it circumvents the very concept of election day. There is something vital in having everyone vote on one certain day: everyone is voting on the same day. If something happens late in a campaign, everyone at least has the opportunity to incorporate this new information before voting. Yes most people will have decided long before election day and nothing is liable to change that decision. But I would hope one lesson people will take from the current mess is it's important that election rules be consistent and put everyone on the same ground. That can't happen when people are free to choose their own individual election day.

Posted by: Chuck Miller on February 24, 2005 02:45 PM

18. I live in Oregon, and although I am not a huge fan of vote by mail, it does have its advantages.

1. You have to have a valid mailing address to recieve a ballot. Since the ballots are delivered by mail, you wouldn't have phony address voters (by the way, WA had a little problem with this).
2. All the ballots must be recieved by the end of the day on Tuesday (we don't allow ballots to trickle in for another couple of weeks and count them). Postmarks DONT count.
3. There isn't 5 different ways to vote in Oregon. NO PROVISIONAL BALLOTS, NO SEPERATE MILITARY BALLOTS, NO POLLING PLACE BALLOTS, NO TEMPORARY ABSENTEE BALLOTS, NO PERMANENT ABSENTEE BALLOTS.
4. Ballot signatures are verified on each mailed in ballot and compared to the registration card. They need to match. You are logged into the computer as having voted. Since it is 100% by mail you can't vote absentee, then vote at the polling place, and then try to cast a provisional ballot like you can in WA.

The only thing I hate is that other people can pick up your ballot and deliver it to the polling sites. I find this aspect unacceptable.

But, before you trash Oregon, think about many of the problems that would have been avoided had there been a mail election in WA. It wouldn't solve all your problems, but a lot of them wouldn't have come up.

Posted by: Marc on February 24, 2005 02:58 PM

19. Splatter - I will agree with one point of yours, Bradbury is a partisan hack. His ruling on the Nader ballots and other ballot initiatives have been nothing short of contemptable. But, I don't think it is the concept of vote by mail that could cause fraud problems more than the execution of the rules. Put it this way, I would rather have vote by mail than that ridiculous same day registration no id crap that they have in WI that gave the state to Gore and Kerry when it should have gone Bush.

Posted by: Marc on February 24, 2005 03:02 PM

20. If it is the job of the people to challenge who can legally vote, how are we suppose to know who is voting when it is done by mail? The election officials tell us it is not thier job.

Posted by: Tim on February 24, 2005 03:14 PM

21. And Tim, how are you doing this now with all of your WA Permanent Absentee voters?

Posted by: Marc on February 24, 2005 03:16 PM

22. Splatter - So, it is more cost effective to have polling place ballots, military ballots, absentee ballots, and permanenet absentee ballots to process rather than process all vote by mail ballots? Uh, I don't think so.

Posted by: Marc on February 24, 2005 03:23 PM

23. Marc --

I agree, there are benefits and if properly implemented voting by mail could work. The problem as I see it, there are too many career politicians, special interests, party strategists and ideo-activists that will never allow an honest and transparent election system to be constructed.

As for Oregon's election process, it may be better then Washington's, but how can you tell? You have "partisan hacks" running every aspect and telling you that it is as good as gold.

At least Washington's patchwork quilt of a system has enough light showing through we could see the "errors". Oregon's system is more like a brick wall, you have to take of the people on the inside there were no "errors".

There is a reason people like Bradbury love Vote-By-Mail-Fraud. It provides them the brick wall from which they can shout "Prove it, it's all unfounded rumors, they can't PROVE anything.".

The less WE THE PEOPLE are invested and involved the greater the odds their status-quo will remain.

We need election reform, not "error" concealment.

I will take our patchwork quilt over Oregon's brick wall, thanks anyway.

Posted by: Splatter on February 24, 2005 04:24 PM

24. Those "cost effective" Vote-By-Mail-Fraud elections have done wonders for Oregon's lagging economy haven't they? Hey, I know how you can save government another buck on ballot processing, you can give up voting all together! I guess the price for free and fair elections is too much for some. Me, I value quality over cheep crap.

Posted by: Splatter on February 24, 2005 04:39 PM

25. BTW Marc, I didn't write that report and it is from 2001 so take it for what it is, an extensive report on election processes. The "cost" of a fair and honest election is not a big issue with me. It only seems to be brought up by Vote-By-Mail-Fraud fans. Must be #1 on the convincing points. I guess WE THE PEOPLE should like it because its cheep?

Posted by: Splatter on February 24, 2005 04:50 PM

26. "Why then do so many Democrats want all-mail voting? Perhaps because it facilitates the distributed vote fraud that they're addicted to."

That's about the gist of it!

The Democrats must think the people of Washington are extremely senile! Let's take a look at how fabulous our vote by mail system has been with...King County! A little walk down absentee ballot memory lane...
1. KC hired felons to print, process, mail, and sort absentee ballots!
2.The firing of Elections Superintendent Julie Anne Kempf due to late mailings and errors in absentee ballots.
3. The resignation of Elections Top man (Julie Anne Kempfs boss) Bob Roegner due to late mailings, errors with absentee ballots.
4. Missing absentee ballots in districts.
5. Duplicate mailings of absentee ballots.
6. Misprinting of absentee ballots.
7. Absentee ballots used by illegal aliens, dual residents, double voters...

(Here's what I found on the first page of a google search using: King Countys absentee ballot woes....I'll save SP's bandwidth and let you search the other pages...there are too many absentee ballot issues with King County to possibly list here!)

Sims defends King County vote as 99.98% accurate
... now mired in litigation, King County's elections operation ... Logan noted that the county
has implemented ... being verified, 735 absentee ballots erroneously were ...
seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/211469_elections10.html - 27k - Feb 23, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

Senate panel hears of vote woes
... of State Sam Reed, King County Elections Director ... of the Washington Association of
County Auditors sought at ... Why were some absentee ballots rejected because of ...
seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/208330_leg18.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

Scoop: Bev Harris: Embezzler Programmed Voting System
... that sorts 500,000 mail-in absentee ballots for King County. ... our voting system, and
our absentee ballots are being ... totals assigned by the central county office ...
www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0312/S00191.htm - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

Keyword
... By Keith Ervin Seattle Times staff reporter King County election officials ... tray they
believe contains up to 162 misplaced absentee ballots. ... If the ballots are ...
www.freepers.com/focus/keyword?k=logan - 50k -

Robert A. Cook, PE
... fraud-2004-WA-Total Meltdown in King County Voter List http://www.freerepublic ...
fraud-2004-WI Absentee FRAUD: Callers Report Receiving Ballots PRE-Marked ...
www.freepers.com/~robertacookpe/ links?U=%2Ffocus%2Ff-news%2Fbrowse - 93k - Cached - www.freepers.com ]

Bellingham Weekly: skinny
... more than a dozen people who had died well before the general election but were
credited with voting in King County, lending new meaning to absentee ballots. ...
www.bellinghamweekly.com/ bw/content/skinny/poll_postscript/ - 56k -

News: Seattle: Federal ballots get county's attention
... 17. Among more than 500,000 absentee ballots were 1,081 ... buttress Republican claims
that King County failed to ... who observed the county's ballot duplication two ...
student-voices.org/news/index.php3?NewsID=17577 - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

When the Vote Counts Again (Politics)
... machines and punch cards, to the optical scanners in King County and the ... long lines
at some polling places, voting machine errors, absentee ballots that never ...
channels.lockergnome.com/political/ archives/20041215_when_the_vote_counts_again.phtml - 42k - Feb 23, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

It’s Time for Vote Reform (Politics)
... a mayoral election by tampering with 4,740 absentee ballots.... Ciro Rodriguez charged
a missing ballot box appeared ... part, on 723 “lost” votes in King County. ...
channels.lockergnome.com/political/ archives/20041224_its_time_for_vote_reform.phtml - 35k - Feb 23, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

Electionline.org (ElectionLine Today2 Archive)
... today | Federal ballots to get King County's attention | Snohomish County council
to ... paying tab (registration required) | Many absentee voters didn't ...
electionline.org/ index.jsp?page=Electionline%20Today2%20Archive - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

Posted by: Deborah on February 24, 2005 07:28 PM

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