February 18, 2005
"I was a Democrat until September,'' she said

As Stefan posted earlier, the 5th District Democrats, by applauding the unconstitutional confiscation of rural land by King County's Council through the Critical Areas Ordinance, are unintentionally enlightening their own constituents:

Sims gave his planned presentation on King County's Critical Areas Ordinance, outlining its history, its intent and its merits.

Protesters snickered and sneered, then voiced their displeasure when it was announced Sims would be taking just three questions, and only from Democrats.
---
But a curve ball was thrown when the final question was asked by a woman who turned out to be a Democrat no longer.

"I was a Democrat until September,'' said Cherri Mann, her throat quivering. "I walked the walk and I talked the talk.''

Mann [explained] to Sims that her five-acre Bear Creek property is "worthless'' now, because of the strict development limitations of the CAO.

Mann said she needs to get an $800 permit to pick raspberries on her property, and her dog can only run free on two acres of the land.

"My property is worthless,'' she said. "How can government overstep so much?''

You were talking to one answer to that question, Ma'am, standing in a room full of other answers to that question.

Later...

Sims briskly made his way out the door and to his car as the Democrats thanked him and applauded him.
First they tax small business to death, then they grab the land. I'm still expecting to see a call for a "Critical Body Parts" Ordinance, where they declare 65% of each rural King County resident's anatomy under municipal control.

(Hat tip: Orbusmax)

To learn more: visit the Citizen's Alliance for Property Rights.

Posted by Brian Crouch at February 18, 2005 10:05 AM | Email This
Comments
1. “corruption” he murmured.

He had said it before. Tears of hopelessness were the only response. The rulers without souls had stolen their strength…. leaving only despair and silence.

What’s that? The wind? He couldn’t be sure. He strained and listened.

And there it was. Another voice had mimicked him.

This couldn’t be!

He muttered the word again. The voice mimicked back.
He raised his voice. And, as if aided by some unseen force, the mimic responded in kind.

He screamed the word. From the blackness, the scream was returned.

Eyes, long since dulled by loneliness and fear, started to blink. Another voice mouthed the word. Another. Then another. Then another. And then, as a forest fire spreads across the treetops, the word danced across the multitudes. It rose in volume until it engulfed the land. Souls screamed the word to unleash their bonds. Each chorus became louder than the last. The ground reverberated with the sound.

“Corruption”


Posted by: Ken Muller on February 18, 2005 10:07 AM
2. Brian,
I still have yet to see a concise summing-up of the issues surrounding the CAO. Explain to me, as a Seattlite, why I should care about this. What is each side's stance? Is it purely partisan, or is it more urban vs. rural?

Thanks!
Brendan

Posted by: bmvaughn on February 18, 2005 10:08 AM
3. My sense is it's both partisan, and urban versus rural...I live in Maple Valley, and I would never think I should be telling Ballard about their land use policies. Seattle, unfortunately, does not return the favor.

Posted by: South County on February 18, 2005 10:17 AM
4. Brendan, the basic issue is one of property rights (city vs. rural). King County has essentially said that you can only build on a small percentage of your property, and only if your building doesn't affect any "critical" areas, which of course they get to define. It's a case of the city mice telling the country mice what to do with their property.

For instance, a rural homeowner has to deal with this:

"New clearing on rural residential properties is based on parcel size and location. For lots less than 5 acres, the amount of clearing allowed is the greater of fifty percent of the lot or the amount legally cleared prior to January 1, 2005. For lots 5 acres or larger, the amount of clearing allowed is the greater of 2.5 acres, 35% of the lot, or the amount legally cleared prior to January 1, 2005."

And that's just the portion regarding the clearing of land - we haven't even talked about building on it yet. A five acre lot is roughly 217,800 sq. feet. 35% of that is 76,230 sq. ft. 1.75 acres) Let's say the owner wants to lease the land for the construction of a strip mall. The size of the development would be very limited since you also have to allow room for a parking lot the size of which of course, are regulated also.

This is just one "for instance" I can think of. I'm sure someone more well versed in real estate could tell you in greater detail the ramifications of this on development; however it doesn't take a real estate genius to figure out that land that can't be used isn't worth anything.

The core issue is that the denial of the free use of property amounts to property devalument at best and illegal confiscation at worst. In either case, at no compensation to the land owner.

Posted by: robert on February 18, 2005 10:40 AM
5. "We don't want this event to be confused with `The Jerry Springer Show.' ''

Isn't Jerry Springer a democrat?

The new chair of the 5th district 'Rats is Kayne McGladrey, and she sounds awfully judgmental.

(See http://www.5thdems.org/)

Posted by: Huckleberry on February 18, 2005 10:42 AM
6. Go to www.proprights.org , left side, click on NO CAO, you can read the text of the CAOs, the analysis of science, and testimony. You can also contribute to the legal fund to help the fight against the CAOs in court.
The best way to understand the ordinances is to read them.
Cindy

Posted by: cindy on February 18, 2005 10:57 AM
7. I don't think this should be dignified as a "rural vs. urban" thing. Rather, it's a majority being able to pass a law that doesn't even affect them, but kicks a minority pretty hard in the pocket book. Representation Without Taxation.

I also think the 65/35/10 aspect of the CAO might not be the right thing to focus on. Rural residents are justifed in complaining that 65% of their land has just been seized, but in reality I'm sure very few of them planned on clearing more than 35%. I worry that complaints about this just generate sound bites for CAO proponents - "See? These rednecks all want to clearcut their land!"

I think the real killer is the increased buffer sizes. If you have a small patch of moist ground, and the county decides this is a "wetland", you can end up with a 200 foot buffer around it. That's a 200 foot *radius*! Draw a few 400 foot blobs on any acreage and it becomes useless in a hurry. The CAO "allows" slight intrusion on these boundaries, but you have to give up more land elsewhere and in practice they don't amount to anything useful (but this allows Ron Sims to talk about how "flexible" the CAO is).

The key is in "mitigation", meaning the government will let you build inside the buffers, but only if you demonstrate that you've set up an equivalent wetland elsewhere. The REAL key is that to do this, you have to pay King County a fortune for permits and wait years for them to drag their heels.

So, aside from pandering to environmentally-minded voters with a bill that costs them nothing (and costs the hicks FAR more than any environmental benefits would have in a market-driven solution - "but hey, it's not *our* money"), this is mainly a bill to keep a bunch of civil servants happily employed for years to come. Guess who drafted the CAO.

Posted by: Mitsubob on February 18, 2005 11:07 AM
8. The CAO is just the logical extension of the Growth Management Act. That Act, roundly voted down by the electorate, was rammed down their throats by the Legislature, and contained other cynical anti-democratic provisions such as the politically appointed Hearings Boards who had powers of overruling locally elected bodies in land-use decisions.

The GMA was also the beachead of the invasion of unelected planners, all marching to the same drummer of environmental socialism against traditional property rights. Take a census of unelected planners on Government payrolls now, and compare it to some year such as 1985 - the cancer has metastatised big time. Until the concept of land ownership is restored to the owners from the clutches of this new ruling class, travesties of the CAO sort will continue to expand.

Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on February 18, 2005 11:09 AM
9. This reminds me ... no, this is exactly the same as ... the communist collectives that would take family farms, thus taking away the ability of people to feed themselves, and then making these people dependent on the state for bread.

Of course, many, if not most, of these people then starved to death.

Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on February 18, 2005 11:12 AM
10. I have still yet to see the pro-CAO side, and I think I'd have to see that to form an opinion on the issue.

Posted by: bmvaughn on February 18, 2005 11:13 AM
11. It's called a "Taking." Government taking property for public use without proper compensation to the land owner. It's more properly recognized as unmitigated gall and hubris. This blue state is purple...as it makes the move to red.

Posted by: dkpcowboy on February 18, 2005 11:15 AM
12. Brian,
Thanks for giving the CAOs the attention that is needed. you might be interested in an article in the TNT today, www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/4609313p-4282929c.html
Yes, people are serious about this, we haven't been spending all our time pickin our teeth with straw...
Cindy

Posted by: cindy on February 18, 2005 11:16 AM
13. I agree with Mitsubob that the focus of CAO should not be diffused by a "urban v. rural" red herring.

I understand that a recent survey showed that Seattle households are single-occupant in 2 out of every 5 houses.

What if the KCC arbitrarily decided that, henceforth, EVERY house within the Seattle City limits had to have a minimum density of 2 persons - anything else was damaging to the "environment" and a waste of "valuable resources".

My analogy is no less goofy, no less tyrannical, and no less potential as what "Tax to the Max has done to us!

Posted by: Anyone but Erik on February 18, 2005 11:19 AM
14. The 5th District Republicans will just win by a bigger margin this time.

Imagine, Democrats are celebrating the kind of freedom-lynching the CAO represents....

Posted by: Michele S on February 18, 2005 11:19 AM
15. RON SIMS
UP FOR RE-ELECTION NOV 7th 2005

LETS EVICT HIM ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Posted by: chardonnay on February 18, 2005 11:21 AM
16. This is great. Sims keeps popping up on the average Joe's radar with references to gaffs, corruption, angry citizens, mixed up numbers, faulty elections, etc.

When voting time comes in November, Sims is done.

Posted by: Jeff B. on February 18, 2005 11:36 AM
17. chardonnay,

Any idea who might be running against him? While I think it's important to get Mr. Sims out of that office, I also wouldn't want to do what the Dems did in this last Presidential election, chanting "anyone but Bush". "Anyone but Sims" is only asking for trouble.

Posted by: Jason on February 18, 2005 11:40 AM
18. 'Democrats thanked him and applauded him'

I guess I'm confused...why would anyone thank someone who just grabbed their land or put restrictions on usage of it?

Democrats....hmmmm...well, perhaps I just answered my own question. Outrageous!

Posted by: Susu on February 18, 2005 11:46 AM
19. I just posted this on the previous topic concerning "House Training"

If the Democrats want to enact restrictions on our land then let's set up an initiative directly relational and proportional to how they are impacting us. Let’s get Tim Eyman in on this. A people's initiative where any wetlands buffered, Growth Management Act restricted, or CAO limited section of privately held property cannot be taxed. Not reduced taxes as they do now for some areas, let’s get no taxes on it. If it is a business, home, farm, or just plain land; it sits on the property within the area of the restriction, no taxes on the part that is affected. Within one mile from my place this would immediately eliminate over 1 million in tax base which would force the tax burden back onto the reserves and lands of those who are enacting this policy. During a recent Growth management act meeting in Orting the board members dictating the implementation of this act were asked if their lands and homes were affected. Not one was. Fine, lets hear their howling as they scramble to clean up the mess they have caused. Let's hear the politicians mumbling as they try to explain it to those who are unaffected and will shortly have their property taxes increased to cover the loss. I can see a legal battle saying this is exclusionary but the legal statutes they are enacting are already exclusionary and there is legal precedence for reducing taxes for wetlands, buffered property, and similar restricted areas without taking away the land owners property. I just feel if they are removing a significant amount of the tax value they are dependent upon, lets take it all away just as they are taking away the financial potential invested in that land.


I feel this lady's pain as well as how most of you feel (not counting the liberal mouthpieces here) concerning this. Due to the new buffer zone width impacting wetlands (and lakes) as of 1 March my entire property will be unable to have any building, gardening, home repair, or modification on it. I won’t even be allowed to mow it according to the statutes they have in place. I cannot do anything “to decrease the natural settings of the wetlands”. Personally I can see restrictions the historical area of a flood zone, I can see restrictions in a wetland unable to sustain livestock or a building, what I cannot understand is why they restrict a 1 acre hill 15 feet above flood level with a house that has been there for almost 80 years.

Posted by: Mark Beyer on February 18, 2005 11:50 AM
20. Mark,
About taxing or not taxing the affected land: I saw an article on King 5 a few of Sundays ago, hosted by Robert Mac on this issue. One lady he interviewed was in the area in question but she agreed to the restrictions. She had 17 acres (if I remember the story correctly) and had left it in an undeveloped state. It is now tall trees and looks very nice. What she did not say but was mentioned at the end of that segment by Robert Mac was that she was given a 90% reduction in taxes for doing that. I can't remember the exact date of the story but it was within the last month or 6 weeks. Maybe you can look that up and use that as a precidence.

Posted by: RobertinTacoma on February 18, 2005 12:28 PM
21. Mark, the answer is simple. Because they think they can. Power corrupts and they are as corrupt as is conceivable.
Not Taxation without Utilization.

Posted by: Paladin on February 18, 2005 12:30 PM
22. Does anyone know where the $800 permit to pick raspberries and the dog limit comes from? The only thing I saw in the ordinances were a reference limiting "harvesting" but that seemed to refer to a crop you planted rather than wild raspberries. I just can't understand how picking raspberries would cause erosion or flooding issues or anything else negative.

As for the dog, I gather that he or she might poop in a stream? But the regulations on surface water simply say that no "person" can dispose of animal waste in surface water. That seems to suggest that Fido can.

Apologies for trying to find some logic here. Full disclosure--I am a Dem, but I think the CAO is pretty scary. I would definitely support lowering/removing property taxes on restricted areas.

Posted by: Chris on February 18, 2005 12:31 PM
23. Socialism bordering on Communism. I'm shocked at how far left the Dems are moving. Socialism in the form of Environmentalism. It's always easier to agree to something if it doesn't impact you directly. Dems the party of fear, hate and lies. Now we can add thieves to that list. Write letters to your government elected officials. We will not put up with this. They're asking for a riot.

Posted by: Tomas on February 18, 2005 12:34 PM
24. Theodore Roosevelt:

No one ownes land to the exclusion of the community to regulate it.

Damn socialist!

Posted by: JDB on February 18, 2005 12:59 PM
25. bmvaughn,

While it is very open-minded of you to want to consider the pro-CAO side of the equation, in this case I don't believe that is necessary.

Our (western, capitalist) system of property law is based on economics, pure and simple. The private individuals who own a particular property control that property. Any system which infringes on this for the 'collective good' is one step toward socialism and/or communism.

Any restrictions put on the use of land end up devaluing the land. This is because land value is determined by the alternative uses of the land. Look at Chicago and Las Vegas. Las Vegas is spread out and property is relatively inexpensive on the fringes because it is all desert - there is no alternative use for the land. In Chicago, there is Lake Michigan on one side (with its prime views), and some of the richest farmland in the world on the other side. So even the fringe properties in Chicago are relatively expensive. Whether you want to sell to a developer or a farmer, you're likely to get good money for your property.

How does the CAO affect this? It essentially prohibits ANY alternative land use. Do you want to develop it? Too bad. Do you want to farm it? Tough nuts. By putting restrictions on 65% of the land, King County has seriously devalued land that does not belong to them.

If you have a parcel of 10 acres, you paid fair market value for those 10 acres with the expectation that you could do what you want - keep them, sell them to a developer, pass them down to your children, etc. But how are land values calculated? By the price the land could sell for, which is based on what surrounding properties are currently selling for. So now if you want to sell your 10 acres, the next buyer is going to evaluate the value based on being able to use and/or develop 3.5 acres. This is a serious devaluation of your 10 acres.

That is the CAO in a nutshell - it's a serial devaluation of private property by King County. If King County wanted to buy 65% of those 10 acres at fair market value and call it eminent domain, that would be different. But to devalue private property, with no measurable increase in value in any other respect, for the 'collective good', does not follow the philosophy of the property rights in a democratic, capitalist country.

Posted by: Larry on February 18, 2005 01:14 PM
26. If this land grab scheme stays in effect, don't be surprised to see future King County directives allowing variances to locate tent cities on the 65% of the private property they believe is theirs to control. Furthermore, the property owners will most likely be liable for any injuries sustained to a tent city inhabitant while on said property. Time for King County to be constrained to the Seattle city limits.

Posted by: Michael E on February 18, 2005 01:15 PM
27. JDB,

Love your Teddy quote: "No one ownes land to the exclusion of the community to regulate it."

In this case, who is the community? Ron Sims and urban dwellers of Seattle are the community of all of King County? Not even close.

Ron Sims and King County control 1900 square miles of unincorporated land - about the size of the state of Delaware. Thinking that Ron Sims is part of the 'community' of this wonderful, rich, useful, and varied land is mistaken.

Posted by: Larry on February 18, 2005 01:29 PM
28. It's interesting how the vast majority of posters see this quite clearly as a property-rights issue in which government is taking value without compensation - and yet it seemed just the other day so few recognized this in the case of the smoking ban. Well folks, THEY ARE THE SAME THING! It's not rural vs city or smokers vs non, both are government unjustly taking property rights, period. Both claim politically-correct motives- healthy air, pristine environment- but we shouldn't let that hide the fact that BOTH are unwarranted, unjust and uncompensated TAKINGS. When government is comprised of individuals who see this kind of creeping socialism as progress none of us is safe. Hopefully more and more will agree and together we will vote the bums out!

Posted by: Chuck Miller on February 18, 2005 01:45 PM
29. Thanks, Chuck -- I was just going to paste Larry's remarks:

"Our (western, capitalist) system of property law is based on economics, pure and simple. The private individuals who own a particular property control that property. Any system which infringes on this for the 'collective good' is one step toward socialism and/or communism."


and ask if the some of our friends on this board:

a) agree with this assessment, and

b) recognize their hypocrisy.


But you said it far better than I.

--Mike

Posted by: NW Mike on February 18, 2005 02:58 PM
30. An urban Dem here...

I don't have a problem with these regulations, in general. How is this any different than zoning laws in the City?

What I DO have a problem with is changing these laws to affect the EXISTING owners without any compensation. When they bought/acquired/inherited/etc. this land, they did not expect to be bound by these restrictions.

I'm all in favor of the tax credit for EXISTING owners.

Posted by: Michael on February 18, 2005 02:59 PM
31. Then, Chris the Dem, please don't vote for Ron Sims this fall. This is what he's all about and I've heard worse about blackmail/thuggery/power abuse he's pulled on certain groups in previous elections from people who've paid attention to local politics for years. No fair-minded Dem should ever vote for Sims again. It's OVER>

To whoever wondered above who might be running against Sims in the fall: I've heard rumblings that Dave Irons Jr. may run against Sims, since Irons and Kathy Lambert are now in the same district after the reduction in council positions.

Posted by: Michele S on February 18, 2005 03:03 PM
32. I wonder how many urban Dems would be in favor of these regulations if they extended to urban dwellers. How about if you own a house in Wallingford and when it rains a puddle forms in your backyard. Therefore, you have what has been deemed wetlands and therefore you are unable to touch the land within 200 feet of that puddle. What about a setback from the property line of 20 feet to allow a natural boundry? Or how about for you apartment dwellers... your 900 square foot apartment is deemed to have 300 ft required by the county to house homeless transients. Let the government take from others and eventually they will take from you. Socialism gone amuck. Toss the chumps out.

Posted by: Tomas on February 18, 2005 03:07 PM
33. Michael, the difference is these are not "zoning" laws. Zoning laws say what you can do on the land - 1 house per 5 acres, residential only, etc. They specify the uses. The operative word is "uses". Under the CAO you can't do anything on 65% of the land. You can't uproot weeds, shrub brush, blackberries. If a storm knocks down a tree, you have to leave it. (Consider the potential forest fire hazard coincident with that.) The one thing you can do is pay 100% of the taxes. You have to even leave a 15 ft wildlife corridor on each side of the property line you share with a neighbor.
and if you want to, for example, uproot some intrusive blackberries that are destroying an existing fence, you need to have an "inspector" come out and pay him $140/hour to look at what you want to do, draw up a plan (IF he agrees and there's no guarantee of that) and then he'll determine how much the peermit will cost you.
And that's only a part of it. Any exemption you have for any part because it's already been done, does NOT apply to a new owner if you sell.
welcome to the Soviet Union of King County. And the main issue - it only applies to the rural areas.

Posted by: Paladin on February 18, 2005 03:10 PM
34. Michael,

It's different from zoning laws in the city because zoning laws still let you do SOMETHING.

Imagine if the zones were Residential, Commercial, Industrial, and Nothing. You own a Residential or Commercial lot, but King County re-zones 65% of it as a Nothing lot. You can't build, develop, landscape, clear, or do much of anything on 65% of your lot. Your lot was just devalued with no compensation. That's the CAO.

Another example would be if you own an SUV that seats five people. King County passes a law that says you can't use 65% of your horsepower nor seating area. You are allowed to have one adult and one child in your SUV (1.75 seats), and if the speedometer goes up to 120 mph you are allowed to drive 42 mph. Would that devalue your SUV if you tried to sell it to a resident of King County? Absolutely. You'd sell it to someone who would drive it somewhere else. But that's not possible with property.

Posted by: Larry on February 18, 2005 03:14 PM
35. The difference is that zoning laws are to regulate activities that have a direct impact on your neighbors. CAO regulates activities that don't effect anyone else. CAO wants 50-65% of rural property to remain in a "wilderness condition" - they don't even allow you to plant a garden or pasture your horse.

CAO is not really about rural/urban ... it's about individual rights and property rights. I've been a city dweller all my life but I am absolutely livid about CAO. And thank you very much Chuck Miller for pointing out that the smoking restrictions are more of the same. It is an attempt to restrict the rights of a property owner on use of their own property even though it does not affect anyone unless they freely choose to go there.

If we don't start protecting our rights we are going to wake up to find we don't have any. Rural property rights today - smoking tomorrow - what rights the next day?

Posted by: VR on February 18, 2005 03:57 PM
36. JASON,
David Irons said he has not made a decision yet, I begged him to run.
Kathy Lambert is another one that might try.
sims needs to be removed NO MATTER WHAT.

Posted by: chardonnay on February 18, 2005 04:09 PM
37. FUN FACTS:
did you know King County has more than 17,000 employees?
KC has more than 1,700,000 residents, that makes (1) KC employee for every 100 residents. WOW aren't we special. Now, how many people work for the city of seattle? I think we actually have (2) civil servants per 100 residents, at least.

Not that it matters, but it is interesting to see how much they all get paid.

www.lbloom.net

Shows all the govn't employees salaries. Boy it is a business that's for sure, at our expense.

Posted by: chardonnay on February 18, 2005 04:20 PM
38. Hooray for CAO! If it's for the Environment, it must be good. Wouldn't it do much more good for the environment if CAO were applied to, say, ...Seattle? Let's apply the CAO to all developed property within King County. We'll include parks, schools, roads, everything. If you want to remodel your house, well make sure the final result including lawn, garden, driveway, and house doesn't cover more than 35% of your lot. Downtown development? Apply the CAO! In just a few years the environment of King County will be utterly transformed.

Posted by: Lee on February 18, 2005 06:18 PM
39. Tax breaks for the takings under the CAO are just a bandaid. What use is a tax break on such over-regulated land? It is a savings, but it does not address the fact of takings without compensation. A tax break is not a compensation. To me a tax break that is offered to some, but not all of the states' citizens is not strickly constitutional either. But then I never liked tax breaks that were offered to some and not all citizens, I just see it as social engineering. So the people who lost their land use should say,to the county, now I feel better and will quit fighting what you are doing that is wrong? I don't agree with most of what the tax money is being used for anyway. But then I am just a mean republican.
Cindy

Posted by: cindy on February 18, 2005 07:16 PM
40. The CAO is not a taking. To quote myself (because I am just that damn good):

Justice Scalia, in his majority opinion in Lucas v. South Carolina Coastal Council stated (505 U.S. 1003 (1992) stated:

We have, however, described at least two discrete categories of regulatory action as compensable without case-specific inquiry into the public interest advanced in support of the restraint. The first encompasses regulations that compel the property owner to suffer a physical "invasion" of his property. In general (at least with regard to permanent invasions), no matter how minute the intrusion, and no matter how weighty the public purpose behind it, we have required compensation. The second situation in which we have found categorical treatment appropriate is where regulation denies all economically beneficial or productive use of land.

This is not a physical invasion of the land (for which you must be compensated), but a claimed regulatory taking. As Justice Scalia stated, otherwise you must deny "all economically beneficial or productive use," and the CAO does not do this.

End quote.

Larry, glad you like the quote. There are of course, several communities in question here. However, the important one is the Community of King County.

In general you are right, our ideas of property derives in part from our capitalist system (although it really originates in the desire to keep control over land within a family during feudal times, it has been adjusted with the rise of captialism). However, there has always been a mixture of state/family and profit when it comes to property.

I do strongly disagree with your statement "Any restrictions put on the use of land end up devaluing the land." Assuming there was only one use to the land, you would be right. But restriction can also increase the value by making something rarer (if you can only develop 40% of the land, that which can be developed increases in price) and by making something more attractive (There are people who want to live where the streams are clear and lots of woods around, this guarentees that). Or do you think that the regulation that keeps your neighbor from selling his property for a fat rendering plant (and prevents you from doing the same) devalues your property? Of course not, that is a regulation that adds value to your property.

And note, if you already cleared your forty acres and paved a few streams just because, damn it, it is your property, you are fine. This only effects undeveloped tracks as of this year.

Again, if we really think about it, there has to be some regulation of all property. You can't just put a mall where you want, and you shouldn't be able to pave over a stream or drain a lake just because it is your land. Where you draw the line is always up for arguement, but the fact that you draw a line doesn't make you a commie. No matter how hard the Building Association is trying to buy themselves a governor, not even Rossi is going to make it so that anything goes.

Posted by: JDB on February 18, 2005 09:23 PM
41. Civil war is coming if these tyrannists stay this course.

Posted by: Jericho on February 18, 2005 10:44 PM
42. Since Ron Sims is so damn hot for keeping green space green, I think it's only fair that we pass a not so critical area ordinance, that requires for every 200 acres of land ruralites can no longer develop/clear, 20 acres of urbanite land must be reclaimed and turned into parks.

Rural King County would still be getting the lions share of the shaft, but it seems to me that's the "least" Urban King County could do in the name of "fairness".

I won't hold my breath though...

Posted by: Ed on February 18, 2005 10:48 PM
43. JDB,
re your last post: I don't think most anyone here will disagree with reasonable zoning laws, which is exactly what you are talking about. As of this date, you cannot just put a mall anywhere you want to in King County. You can't build anywhere you want you (i.e. on top of a stream). Those laws were already in place. Now the county comes out with this so-called Critical Area Ordinace and says: "You can't do anything at all", as in nothing, with that land.

As far as wanting to do anything with their land, I don't blame people for saying that, after abiding by existing zoning laws that are working just fine and then all of sudden get hit with this CAO. Don't you think it is reasonable for some to throw up their hands and exclaim: "Fine! We will vote you out, repeal the laws, do what we want with our land if this is the way you are going be!" That is just an expression and a not a good point to argue at this stage. Those same people would not want a mining operation upstream dumping cyaninde in the water. Again, reasonable zoning laws are good and were already there. Some would argue that the existing laws were themselves too restrictive and I tend to agree in some cases. For instance I have heard over the past years of people who were told they could not add a garage or other normally reasonable structure on their land because of a type of grass growing that indidcated it may be or may have been a wetland. Unfortunately, I don't have proof but I specifically remember that being an issue just a few years ago. Maybe someone else here could find more on that.
As far as Socialism goes, I believe any restrictions put on private property is leaning towards Socialism. By it's very definition, you are restricting the use of privately owned land for the good of the public. Reasonable zoning laws are understandable but the CAO seems to turn that corner too close to true Socialism.

Posted by: RobertinTacoma on February 19, 2005 05:54 AM
44. I am not a resident of KC (thank the lord), but other counties will follow suit. This is Big City dictating to Rural County.

The City dwellers will have miles and miles of "Greenbelts" to view when on a Sunday Drive. Their escape from the Concrete and Asphalt that plague their daily life.

The GMA is sufficiant(if not overbearing), and the CAO is just another intrusion of Goverment on the Taxpayers.

If you cut a tree down, you can plant another in its place. But when you pour concrete, no tree will grow. Let the city tear up it's concrete, and plant it's trees, but let the Rural Property Owners have land that is valuable to THEM.

Posted by: Chris (not the Dem) on February 19, 2005 06:47 AM
45. Isn't the real kicker in the CAO the identification of "critical areas"? Zoning contiguous areas for responsible development is clearly within the responsibilities of government. But to already have a zoning plan in place, then overlay yet another zoning plan on top of that whereby the government gets to cherry pick the land subject to the zoning is very close to a taking.

The more I read about CAO, the more it sounds like the old Green Belt ordinance deemed unconstitutional by the WA State Supreme Ct in 1988 (http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/supreme/109wn2d/109wn2d0947.htm).
Seattle had an overlay zoning model as well. The court found that the taking of 50-70% of the land for green belt was just the same as taking the land for a road and hide this taking in the guise of a zoning regulation would be inequitable.


I guess Sims and the Dems' think that with the wealth and power of the county they can pound down opposition legally and politically.

Posted by: iconoclast on February 19, 2005 09:58 AM
46. Riddle me this...

Who actually votes for Sims...this guys by all standards either a complete Imbecile or he is extremely arrogant...

On one hand, you can't pay for this kind of (Sims) comedy, on the other KC tax payers are paying dearly....

Posted by: flexnfx on February 20, 2005 01:06 AM
47. Chuck Miller said:
"It's interesting how the vast majority of posters see this quite clearly as a property-rights issue in which government is taking value without compensation - and yet it seemed just the other day so few recognized this in the case of the smoking ban. Well folks, THEY ARE THE SAME THING! "

Just out of curiosity, can you give me a parallel analogy that relates to the effect smoke from a cigarette has on a person sitting 30 feet away from the smoker? What is the effect on other people walking by someone's rural land? I fail to see how you are drawing this comparison. If you smoke in the same room I am in, there are potential health hazards to me from your action. If I walk by your 10 acres in rural King county, what effect does it have on me?

Posted by: dragon on February 20, 2005 07:43 AM
48. Dragon

Your argument would be better served if there were any provable effect of second hand smoke. Unfortunately, there isn't any health impact from so-called second hand smoke.

Posted by: iconoclast on February 20, 2005 08:42 AM
49. Dragon

Your argument would be better served if there were any provable effect of second hand smoke. Unfortunately, there isn't any health impact from so-called second hand smoke.

Posted by iconoclast at February 20, 2005 08:42 AM

And I suppose you have definitive proof that there are absolutely zero provable effects?

I am certain that for every "study" you cite that claims there is no provable effect, there is a contrasting "study" that claims there is. Unfortunately, there may not be any definitive proof either way, but the possibilty still remains, hence the term in my original post "potential health hazards." Reading is fundamental

Posted by: dragon on February 20, 2005 09:04 AM
50. Dragon;

I won't speak for Chuck Miller, but I'd say the parallel between the 2 issues is unwarranted gov't intrusion. Simply put, you do not have to sit in the same room as the smoker. Take it upon yourself to use a little personal responsibility and don't do business with clubs/restaurants that allow smoking. There is simply no reason to have the government come in to handle this for you. Now if I'm wrong, and making the choice to avoid places that allow smoking is really too difficult for people to handle without the nanny state making it all better, then I suggest the other side is right when they argue people aren't capable of serious responsibilities such as managing land, school vouchers, medical savings accounts, investing their social security, educating their own children ect.
Just a thought.

Posted by: Dave on February 20, 2005 11:36 AM
51. Dragon - you are missing the point. If I own a commercial property and I choose to allow smoking on that property that should be within my rights. You are not exposed to any smoke unless you choose to come onto my property.

By the way, the World Health Organization has tried very hard for years to prove that casual exposure to second hand smoke is a health hazard in any small way but admits it has been unable to do so. To my knowledge (and I have actively looked for it) there has never been any type of study that claims any hazard from casual exposure to smoke. Claims of hazards are from studies of daily close exposure such as families of smokers. Even these studies are questionable in their methods and/or conclusions.

As I said, the quesion of health hazards is moot. If I own the property I should make the choice and the public can choose whether or not to come there.

Posted by: VR on February 20, 2005 11:43 AM
52. "New clearing on rural residential properties is based on parcel size and location. For lots less than 5 acres, the amount of clearing allowed is the greater of fifty percent of the lot or the amount legally cleared prior to January 1, 2005. For lots 5 acres or larger, the amount of clearing allowed is the greater of 2.5 acres, 35% of the lot, or the amount legally cleared prior to January 1, 2005."

Sounds to me like huge corporations like D.R. Horton can't denude entire hillsides and put up half million dollar clapboard shacks for yuppies with more money than brains. The communities will be called "Forest Hills" or somesuch for what they used to be.

Sounds to me like these poor landowners were banking on getting rich by selling their land to said corporations. In other words, land speculating. Cry me a river.

Posted by: Me on February 20, 2005 11:58 AM
53. Dragon

I am sorry to have misunderstood your definition for potential. Clearly in your mind as long as there is a non-zero probability for deleterious effects, then there exists a potential for harm in your worldview. And any unknown probabilities also equate to some potential in your worldview. Which, carried far enough, can create some truly silly scenarios.


However, for those of us interested in insisting upon proven and meaningful probabilities before legislating public health questions, my point still remains. There is no proven negative health effect for second hand smoke. All the studies alleging second hand smoke effects are either completely bogus (e.g. Helena Montana "study"), or so flawed in methodology or analysis that they are useless for informed public policy.

And, in the absence of proof, legislate nothing until (non-junk) proof is provided.

Posted by: iconoclast on February 20, 2005 12:33 PM
54. Me - How much of your own food do you grow? How much of your own energy do you produce? What about your own defense from invaders? or from criminals? Do you provide ahy of these things?

Did you provide your own shelter? Or did someone build it for you? Do you make your own clothing or did someone make it for you? Do you provide your own clean water or does someone do that for you too?

A 21st century 'dude' you are! Completely ignorant of how to survive if you needed to do so and completely ungrateful to God and those who understand the wealth that comes from private property which makes your 'dude' existence possible.

Posted by: Jericho on February 20, 2005 05:18 PM
55. Jericho:

A non sequitir if there ever was one. This has absolutely zero to do with producing energy, shelter, or whatever. It has everything to do with wanting to denude the landscape to put in more substandard housing people can't afford.

Posted by: Me on February 20, 2005 09:18 PM
56. It has everything to do with wanting to denude the landscape to put in more substandard housing people can't afford.

Now there is a mind-twister of a statement. If people cannot afford the housing, then it will go empty. As for substandard, you should have a look sometime at the building codes in King County sometime. It will quickly disabuse you of that imaginary notion.

If you want to keep the rural land wild, then just buy it and do so. Raise a bond and condemn the land for the state. Don't "protect" the land on someone else's dime. That tactic is commonly known as theft.

Posted by: iconoclast on February 21, 2005 07:26 AM
57. Me - Give me one example where corporate ownership of property has created wealth. By corporate I do not mean corporations, which are, Chinese corporations aside, privately owned; I mean ownership by the governing class be that a king and his lords, a politburo, a junta, etc.

One example.

Posted by: Jericho on February 22, 2005 09:16 AM
58. Me - You bash private property using terms like denuding the landscape or substandard or can't afford. Such shows a lack of thought.

Nothing you have today came to you from government. Even national security and security from criminals is provided to you on the backs private property owners. The government produces nothing, it only consumes the life energy of the people. Yes, this is agreed to by the people, but the people of America agree to limited government for we know its corrupting influence since we know ourselves.

We have the God given right to throw off government whenever it fails to uphold our God given rights. We Americans most typically do this through the ballot. When the ballot is corrupted (ie. this election) and the intent of the government is clear to enslave the people they are duty bound to throw off that government. In other words to revolt against that government. The effect: Guns, blood, death, starvation, civil war, etc.

In the American Left's desire to control other's lives is the left willing to sacrifice their own lives? their comfort? The course the left (who I prefer to call the tyrannists) is pursuing can only have one ultimate outcome, war. War is a dealy business, an ugly business, a horror, but there is one thing worse than war ... the willingness to accept anything to avoid it.

The right, the righteous, know that we have been born into a world at war since the world's inception. We are not afraid of war because of the unseen war we know is being waged all around us, by us, and through us. We know that the chains of darkness are much deadlier than the consequences of war and less we accept those deadlier chains we will fight the earthly fight that we and are progeny might live free.

Tyrannists are afraid of war, but still fight wars because they prefer that to admitting that they are not God.

You and the rest of the left have three choices:

One choose God.
Two choose war by continuing to try to enslave the righteous.
Three choose to submit yourselves to natural rights (God given rights) to which you also benefit. Some of those benefits include the opportunity to create wealth, physical life, health, liberty (free speech), etc.

Why has there not been war to this point since obviously the left has long and increasingly sought oppression of God given rights? I defer to the founder's words in the Declaration, "Prudence indeed will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transcient causes, and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are still sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

We chose to suffer the abuse, but it is becoming more and more clear that the efforts of the left evinces a design to enslave us. We will not be enslaved, we are slaves only to Christ, having foresaken the slavery to sin that once held us and having foresaken the hold the world once had upon us we cannot submit ourselves back into that slavery. Our forefathers from Saint Paul, to Wycliff, to Locke, to Whitfield, to Washington, to Lincoln and millions of others paid too dearly through Christ to see to our liberty. We will not go back to slavery.

Those hillsides of which you decry the development are just one example of the efforts tyrannist have made and are making to dictate others lives. The critical areas ordinance is thus just more evidence towards the design of the tyrannists to reduce the people under absolute despotism (to paraphrase the Declaration). It is however a big piece of the puzzle that has made and is making it more and more clear to the people the intent of those who seek to rule. If that intent is further pursued the clarity it provides will lead to resolve, resolve will then lead to courage, and courage to war.

The righteous hope for peace, but we prepare for war. The left hates peace (though it crys it again and again), fears war, but seeks domination.

Choose this day whom you will serve, death or Christ. As for me and my house, we stand with Christ.

Posted by: Jericho on February 22, 2005 10:06 AM
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