February 16, 2005
FOX Honcho Talks Smack on Revote
Over the years my opinion of FOX News anchor John Gibson has evolved. Particularly because he can now be such a formidable interviewer - his stock has been rising. I relied on his series of reports (and book of the same name) entitled “Hating America – The New World Sport” – while braving the onslaught of venomous Anti-Americanism broadcast by the BBC World Service while traveling in Africa last Spring.
More recently, during the late stages of the 2004 Presidential Campaign – when Gibson’s interview of Liberal Brahmin (and shadow Secretary of State) Richard Holbrooke on the last-gasp Kerry effort to create scandal regarding missing Iraqi explosives - prompted the neutralizing Holbrooke admission: “I don’t know the truth” – proved pivotal in ending Kerry’s chances. Because of that, Gibson can be viewed as impressive by any standard.
So I always see it as something of a compliment when Gibson heads our way to do talk radio – like he has this week on KVI. Yesterday, however, was surreal - as Gibson said Republicans should back down and go away on the revote litigation – that they had, in effect, overplayed their political hand. I say Gibson’s just plain wrong on that, and here’s why:
This generation of Republicans has never been more united – and Dino Rossi is the reason for that unity. Look, I hold a center left political perspective, but I have been a Republican since watching Ronald Reagan’s historic swearing-in on the west front of the Capitol in 1981 – the day the Hostages were freed in Iran. It was truly morning again in America. Rossi, and Reagan before him, are uniters. We need to support our Champion. And the Revote challenge does just that.
Like Gibson, some of our elected Republicans urge to take that feeling of sympathetic support (like you, I regularly hear from enormously disaffected Democrats), and go on to win another day. Fold your battle flags, they say, and come out strong in two years. Well, these are not mutually exclusive ideas. I say, do both!
This from John Fund in yesterday’s Opinion Journal:
"If you want to get on local news, it's easier to be in a freak accident than to run for local office," says Marty Kaplan, a professor at the University of Southern California who worked on the study. The most extreme example occurred in Seattle, where 95% of all local newscasts ignored the state's hotly contested race for governor. "Time spent on teasers, bumpers and intro music" on Seattle local newscasts outweighed airtime devoted to the gubernatorial race by 14 to 1, concluded researchers. Given that Republican Dino Rossi surprised everyone by battling Democrat Christine Gregoire to a near-tie (an outcome still being challenged by Mr. Rossi in court) some Republican wags are joking that no local news coverage of their candidates may literally be good news for the GOP.
Lo and behold, looking at today’s Seattle Times
, if there is a single byline written on the revote, I sure can’t find it.
John Fund has consistently reported on this story, and assiduously reminded readers of the national angle here with regard to the Red State/ Blue State dynamic. Mr. Gibson, where have you been? Under Dino Rossi’s leadership, the “upper left-hand corner” has become a quilt of Right-Wingers, NeoCons, Left-Center “Dan Evans” Republicans, Libertarians and “Dinocrats” poised to send this state back into the red. The Democrats may complain about the heat from the revote bonfire, but it is shining a lot of light as well – so bright, in fact, that FOX News just might be able to see it from inside the Beltway. So please, Mr. Gibson:
You report. We’ll decide.
(Hat tip to Sound Politics reader RiceRPFP)
Posted by P. Scott Cummins at February 16, 2005
12:00 PM | Email This
1. For me it is about much more than just this one race, finally the Washington State Republican Party has got the guts to stand up against injustice such as this. I had them 'on probation' for a number of years because I work too hard fr my money to give it to a bunch of cowards who 'cut and ran' every time standing up for the truth and what is right took a little effort. I gave them money this year, for the first time in a while(I gave money to the Swift Boat Vets - byre bye Lurch & I gave money to the NRA - so long to that smarmy little vermin from North Dakota), and if the Party had backed down on this I would have put them back on probation, this time probably for good. I can support candidates I believe in either through the Party or by giving to other groups and I let them know it and I think that that is the word they got from others as well.
2. For me it is about much more than just this one race, finally the Washington State Republican Party has got the guts to stand up against injustice such as this. I had them 'on probation' for a number of years because I work too hard fr my money to give it to a bunch of cowards who 'cut and ran' every time standing up for the truth and what is right took a little effort. I gave them money this year, for the first time in a while(I gave money to the Swift Boat Vets - byre bye Lurch & I gave money to the NRA - so long to that smarmy little vermin from North Dakota), and if the Party had backed down on this I would have put them back on probation, this time probably for good. I can support candidates I believe in either through the Party or by giving to other groups and I let them know it and I think that that is the word they got from others as well.
3. I wish those outside of the action in this state would just keep their pieholes shut when it comes to letting the election go. When something doesn't directly affect people they are full of answers, but when you are on the frontlines you have the on viable answer REVOTE (new election in nov. 05.)
I called in to the show on Monday on the same topic (he has now spent 6 hours on the topic).
He did to me what he did to everyone else including Mary Lane from Dino Rossi's campaign. He let's the caller make half a point then interrupts with an irritating retort that often has little to do with the point being made.
So I have two beefs with John Gibson: He doesn't do talk radio well, and he's a sissified wimp who's afraid of the big scary Democrats.
Maybe his style works well in interviews with shady characters who won't offer the truth, but these aren't professionals calling in. They're honest citizens who have views that are both reasoned and emotional for them.
As for his fear of retaliation, he needs to wake up. Republicans are behind the curve on litigating elections, so winning one on lawful terms can't hurt us. The opposite is true. Depending on how this is handled it may be an opportunity to put a little fear of the public into election worker, dishonest bureaucrats and politicians in this state.
The course of this race was layed down before the election. (Dispite the Dems trying to change the rules as we go along.)
If the shoe was on the other foot the Dems would be in court and THE MSM WOULD BE ON FIRE.
John's contention is that if Rossi wins it set a precident and legitimacy to increased post election litgation.
I say: "Fooie!" The Dems are ALL ABOUT litgation. This election is a case of no longer accepting the fraud, incompetence, and mal/misfeasance that was the status quo in WA elections.
6. Washington is indeed close to turning red! Some of the "New Deal/Great Society" generations still see Maggie, Scoop Jackson and Al Rosellini when they mark "D" on their ballots. Other votors are so doped-up on union kool-aid they fail to recognize that the present lot are not your father's Democrats. From "Remedial Patty" to "Baghdad Jim", Washington Democrats are used to winning regardless of what they do or say. Dino Rossi has indeed inspired people all over this state who are sick of the Seattle elitists dominating state politics. Now is not the time to hold up the French (white) flag!
7. I listened to some of Gibson's show yesterday before getting fed up and switching to Hewitt. Gibson seemed to be saying that Republicans will now be the target of retaliation from democrats but how often is an election close enough for all the fake votes to make a difference? Except in small towns, I'm guessing it's extremely rare, and since the democrats don't have unlimited funds, they will have to choose their battles. I really don't get what Gibson is so nervous about.
8. Gibson, I think, made a classic MSM mistake--he didn't read the blogs before he opened his big mouth. He doesn't know the evidence and he doesn't know the law--and he apparently doesn't realize that this sort of thing has happened before. Him being on the same time as Hewitt is a stunning study in contrasts--even if Hewitt has been kind of a "knucklehead" (to use his own term) about the revote too.
Yes, JDH, there are 'smarmy little vermin' in North Dakota (that's why Montanans tell No-Dak jokes), a point so important you redundundantly repeated it. Twice. Is it possible, though, that the SLV you had in mind is Tom Daschle, the SLV from South Dakota?
Pigs Fly: Re Mr. Cummins' reference to Reagan's morning in America, last week's NYT Book Review review of Paul Lettow's recent book, said this: "Republican presidents should be grateful for the scorn of liberal elites. After they leave office, their reputations have nowhere to go but up. This tendency first became apparent shen historians transformed Dwight Eisenhower from a doddering golfer into a political wizard. ... Now it's threatening to reach epic proportions as Ronald Reagan, famously dismissed by the Washington insider Clark Clifford as 'an amiable dunce,' comes in for reappraisal." And the reappraisal of Reagan in Lettow's book, unlike the agonizing reappraisals of Ike & John Foster Dulles, is powerful & positive.
Then, having given RR a few nice words, the NYT gives two-thumbs-up raves to Michael Medved's Right Turns: "Medved's shift (from left to right)was driven primarily by events in the world: the shocking indifference of his former antiwar brethren to the suffering of the Vietnamese following the Communist victory; ... the inequities of affirmative action; the eagerness of college administrators to abandon academic standards. ... (W)hile Medved's ideals remained intact, early on he began drawing very different lessons from the 60's than most of his contemporariles did. Increasingly he came to see the decade as a time of rampant self-indulgence and moral posturing."
So, way to go, NYT! And way to go, USPO, for your Reagan commemorative.
Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, what I want from you is a subscription to Good Hometraining Magazine. - Ron Sims, via David Boze, KTTH
10. It's ironic that Gibson is the author of "Hating America" because he sounds like France! According to Gibson, we Washingtonians should not decide what's in our best interest and what to do about it. Better to let the outsiders decide what's best since a Republican court victory could cause the Dems to be even more litigious. Like they don't already go to court over every little thing anyway? Sheese!
I do find it amusing that almost no one will agrees with him or will let him talk about anything else. It'll be fun to see if he gets another earful today.
11. I likewise have been very frustrated with John Gibson's inability to grasp this concept. I haven't been able to force myself to listen to him for the entire 6 hours (I usually like John Gibson), so I don't know if anyone has been able to make the point that if we don't pursue this, the Democrats who hold all power will only continue in enabling vote fraud. If the referee at a race keeps tripping up certain runners, you don't just try to run harder, you fire the referee!
Gibson just reminded me why I thank God every day that I am 3000+ miles from the east coast. He insinuated, then tried to backtrack, on an inference to his real thinking.
His thoughts are that this kind of sloppy elections outcome is just part of the process. And, in truth, not as bad as it is in New Jersey so what are we complaining about?
When the caller brought this statement to his attention, he tried to backtrack on it.
He also claimed that the National Republicans were dead-set against what we are doing. If that is the thinking in the beltway, republicans are in trouble.
I am amazed that they are not able to put together the pieces of what could be an insidious puzzle.
What does post-election Washington, Wisconsin, Florida and Ohio have in common now?
I will not listen to the KVI 570 afternoon show until Gibson leaves, he's a bombastic twit.
For JDH: Bravo to the Republican Party for taking a stand on the very obvious cheating, ballot stuffing, ballot disappearance & reappearance, changed ballots, marked-up and white-outed ballots, etc, etc,....they probably failed to take a stand before, because they are most likely guilty of the same thing. However, the Demos went waaaaay overboard this time, and they got CAUGHT BIG TIME!! Now all that remains to be seen is whether the Demos own the judges in this state, or if all the evidence that demands a righteous and just verdict is ignored.
I've watched the Demos operate in this state for a long time, and it seems like all they try to do is hoodwink the voters. Their main talent is argueing how many angels (or should I say lawyers) can dance on the head of a pin. They have the intelligence of the Devil, and the tenacity of a Doberman Pincer. God help us all!
To SMOKE: You say "Fooie!", I say "Phooey!" Now the "new" spelling can join the "new" math. lol
Well, they have finished counting the votes in Iraq, and guess what? Christine Gangrene got 129 votes!-----can you believe it?
This whole thing is about so much more than this election, and Gibsons stance is absolute hogwash. The Democrats have already been "trying" to challenge races, and they will continue to do so at every opportunity.
In any case, to stand down means we give the Democrats free rein to cheat to whatever extent they need to from here on out. If we don't press forward, get the changes needed, including a legitimate governor, it is over in this state.
"This generation of Republicans has never been more united – and Dino Rossi is the reason for that unity. Look, I hold a center left political perspective, but I have been a Republican since watching Ronald Reagan’s historic swearing-in on the west front of the Capitol in 1981 – the day the Hostages were freed in Iran. It was truly morning again in America. Rossi, and Reagan before him, are uniters. We need to support our Champion. And the Revote challenge does just that."
Well put! I completely agree!
Don't give up, Washingtonians. Continue to fight the fraud at every step. Resist those who urge defeat and "reconciliation", because there can be no reconciling with evil. Those who say fold your tents and fight another day don't understand that there won't be "another day" if you do that. Folding now and slinking away will mean that this is nothing more than the high-water mark. "Next time" will turn out to be a slaughter, because Fraudoire will have 4 years to entrench herself and patch things up to make any "rematch" more like a mismatch.
People need to realize that the future is now. Dino Rossi knows this. He has said he doesn't want a political career. For him this is it. Forget about any second-rate consolation prize of running for the Senate against Ne'er-Do-Well (which is a fool's errand anyway since he's very likely to lose that one in a landslide). Now is the time to stand up for yourself and your candidate. It's do or die time, and if we don't fight the fraud now, then when? Why wait for "later" when we have a clear case of proven fraud now? How much better does it get? If we can't prove fraud and fight the cheaters and frauds when it is so clear and obvious, when is there a better chance?
I've spent these last few days quietly disagreeing with Gibson on the revote. Because he doesn't live here, he does not have the 'feel' for this that the rest of us do. He doesn't realize that a solid majority of WAtonians think Dino won and thinks we should just sit back and take all the abuse from KC with failure to clean the voter rolls, etc. and failure to check provisionals and instead feed them straight into the hopper, etc.
I say, no way, we're not gonna take it anymore. And I'm also seeing that a challenge has to have some substance, so , no--the Dems can't just scream a little and get something similar. They're going to have to come up with equally convincing stuff if they want to 'go there'.
Just ignore him.
You have to love this. Conservatives have one of their own treating you on talk radio the way Carlson or Siegle normally treats liberals, and you are all whining about it. The fact that Gibson is basing his point of view on the facts (Rossi's campaign admits they are not claiming fraud, the judge has said you have to prove that the mistakes change the election), and you can almost visualize all of your heads starting to swell up and explode when you are not given your normal "what an excellent point" feedback by agreeing with the host.
And, of course, because he doesn't follow lock step with you and drink the Kool-aide, he must be ignored. Its nice to see that you all have troubles opening your minds to other conservatives and not just liberals.
And if this is the new Washington Republican party, I say give me more of it and more Chris Vance. You have lost seats in the Senate and House, and other than the AGs office, have picked up nothing else. Heck, your senior state wide office holder, Sam Reed, you want to get rid of. This is about as good as when your party was so united under Pat Robinson. While Rossi, who ran a good campaign, barely lost, with this victim mentality that you are showing, I assume we will be back to the 20 plus point losses of Carlson and Craswell in 08.
19. I listened to John Gibson last night. Today I sent a letter to John Carlson suggesting that the next time he takes some time off, he should find a replacement who has some basic knowledge of Washington State politics. I also suggested Mr. C should leave materials so that John Gibson could RESEARCH the topic before speaking.
People around the country ARE very aware of it. In a gop web site chat room, they all knew what I was talking about when I mentioned the Gov race.
one said "did you get a revote yet?"
John Gibson is lost my respect when he hung up on Mary Lane.
also, check out the SOS survey on reform.
21. JDB, even though I wasn't really involved in politics back then, I'm sure you didn't mean to say Pat "Robinson", did you?
Rossi or the GOP should NOT back down on this. In a non Darth Vader sort of way, Rossi is the man who will bring balance (and jobs) back to Wa. As 1069 indicates Olympia is bent on driving every business, that won't submit to mafia rule, out of Wa.
The democrat Mafia is EXACTLY what is running the state now.
Sorry, typing quickly. Robertson. I apparently was having a flash back to Joel Robinson and MST3K.
I listened as long as I could to Gibson yesterday, and ended up turning him off out of frustration. Something that I never do with either of John or Kirby.
I don't know that the party is more united now, or if those who are active are just more vocal, emotional, and determined to be more active. Doesn't matter to me. Either way, I want more qualified candidates and winners in state and local elections. A fired up and motivated base is about the only way it's going to happen.
A caution...there was a great outpouring of energy in '94 and some real successes. I can see that happening now, yet the real challenge is make it self-sustaining and self-perpetuating. Not having the "tilting at windmills" campaigns that came in the wake of '94. We need candidates where the contrast is similar to Rossi v. CG...a difference so clear on character that even when we disagree amongst ourselves, the base is still motivated.
Note to Gibson: offense or defense? You really need to figure this out.
If we play defense, which is Gibson's position, then the Dems set the rules and the agenda, and are never held accountable for the KC elections mess...and it never has substantive change.
If we play offense, we have a say in the rules and agenda, and WE GET TO WIN! We get to change the upper levels of bureaucrats. We get real performance audits. We get to dismantle DSHS and rebuild it along functional lines. We get to correct the problems in the campaign disclosure stuff...and get this...there is actually the possibility of prosecuting criminals and scoundrals in Democratic fleeces. I don't even want to get started on education reform.
Mr. Gibson, it pains me to say this, but you have no clue what a hornet's nest you stepped into here. You may begin by being quiet and listening to words of wisdom.
Back down? Not for a second, and not an inch.
I'm not listening to KVI this week after what I heard on Monday. I'm sure the ratings will drop while Carlson is away, and I sent him an email to let him knoe that Gibson is not up to the job.
Gibson appears to use the "Schrmabo" technique of acting like a big-shot and generating a lot of controversy to try and stir up callers.
I'd prefer someone who has real arguments and ideas.
No, you prefer someone that agrees with you.
27. JDB, you are a troll. But since you can read my mind, what number am I thinking of right now?
I listened to the show yesterday too for about an hour, and I even tried to call in. Unfortunately, I couldn't get through, and most of the folks that did represented the conservatives pretty well, except for a few emotional outbursts here & there, (which can be expected).
John Gibson kept asking for folks to call in and to state why this is not a mistake, as he asserted that is was. Well since I didn't get my voice heard on radio yesterday, I'll type it here.
This isn't about who deserves what, it's about making sure that the will of the people is represented in public offices. Translated, this means that the person who wins the votes should be there. We now have every single election official that matters in the "Great State of Washington" publicly stating that they don't know who won (who rec'd the most votes) and then they go even further and state, we may never know.
Well if our system of elections can't tell us these 2 things, which are the only reason we have an election system, then 2 things jump out at me.
A.) We don't know what the will of the people is/are since we don't know who won.
B.) The system needs serious fixing. (I won't go into details here, because bloggers like Stefan & co. are much more capable of doing that.)
So John Gibson here's why it is not a mistake. This is the only way that serious real reform will be invoked and implemented for the current *broken* election system in our state. If "Dino's Gang", (actually I love that name) backs down and lets this die, then the only reform we'll get is what we deserve...Milk Toast, wimpy, political doublespeak bills & measures that will only further hide and enhance the problems not fix them.
The other reason why this isn't a mistake is quite simple. Until the "genuine/real" will of the people can be determined, then quite frankly we are not in line with our constitution, which I remind you clearly puts the power in the people's hands, not some government machine to determine how and when a person should be certified when the overwhelming majority (most election "experts" would say in landslide terms) of the people say that there should be a new election with an improved system in place.
Let me state that yes I understand that it is up to the legislative branch to certify the Governor, but they are supposed to represent their constituents voices, and if the majority (take any poll run in the last 2-3 months) say that they don't think Gregoire won, well I'd like to hear your logic on how the legislative branch could possibly be listening to their constituents (i.e. the people's will).
I hope this is clear enough for you to understand John, (because from what I heard you doing yesterday i.e. mistating facts and trying to lead your callers down your path and not allowing them to finish their thoughts), and that you'll be able to read this w/o interupting, (that however, I doubt)
Says JDB, "The fact that Gibson is basing his point of view on the facts (Rossi's campaign admits they are not claiming fraud..."
Rossi admits no such thing, because the evidence has yet to be submitted and evaluated. Gibson is also too ignorant to grasp this.
Once the discovery process has gotten under way (can you say 'supoena', or 'testify under oath'?), we'll see some specific examples of misfeasance at least by King County's elections board, and some facts will be brought to light which will show how the MSM has been playing 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' to protect the political class.
Except for the efforts of the Sound Politics blog, the fun aint nearly begun yet.
From the SOS website that Chardonnay cited above: "Governor Christine O. Gregoire has formed the Election Reform Task Force. . ." Argh. As if she's really concerned about reforming the system.
Scott 158, I agree about going on offense rather than defense. That's how Republicans won the Congress in '94.
If we roll over now, then we send the message that there's not really a problem with the election system, that it was all about trying to litigate 'our guy' in.
OT: headline from wnd.com:
5 Democrats face trial for slashing GOP tires
It's nice that some authorities are trying to do their job.
So here is the score card on how the leaders in your party and movement view you guys. In the last week:
1) The Republican SoS condemns you guys for circulating “rumors of errors, mistakes, illegalities” that “were absolutely incorrect.”
2) FOX News anchor John Gibson sits in on KVI and tells you all that you "should back down and go away on the revote litigation" and that you all have "overplayed their political hand."
Does this lead to thoughtful reflection and the moderation of the more extreme voices on the SP blog - fat chance.
O. K. Sandalista I agree with you it’s South Dakota that the “soft spoken’ former senator is from. As fro posting twice, I must have inadvertently double clicked.
Moving on to the matter at hand which is the fact that machine politics has ruled the day around here for as long as I can remember and will continue to do so until, just like any bully, a stop is put to it by people who are simply not going to take it any more.
A ‘ruling elite’ has run this State for as long as I can remember which has bred a sense of entitlement amongst Democrat Party activists.
There is no way that anyone will ever convince me that there was not a deliberate and systematic attempt to disenfranchise our oversees service members and although we may never be able to prove that top Democrats complicit in the ballot box stuffing I can assure you that Democrat Party activists actively encourage those so inclined to engage in ‘distributed fraud.’
I live in Tacoma and have seen it all when it comes to absolute filth and degeneracy in elected and appointed office. This State is a blue ribbon winner when it comes to political corruption.
Some of the same individuals who were handing bags of cash to Seattle Council members a year or so ago were the same individuals who were convicted of mob connected arson in Tacoma two decades ago while being protected by local politicians. This State’s leaders have come from this same cabal and this is our best chance in decades to finally turn them out.
34. Right there JDH steps up with a strong voice of moderation and caution. Surelty there are no “rumors of errors, mistakes, illegalities” that are "absolutely incorrect" in JDH's post - just good solid SoundPolitics "facts".
Rossi is doing the right thing the right way, and not just because a large majority of Washington State voters agree. But it's not like Fund and Gibson are wrong to question the long-term value of the re-vote drive either. The fact is nobody can see the future well enough to know for certain we wouldn't get everything we want, and maybe more, by backing off.
Personally, I think we are far from the point where Rossi should call it a day. But again, nobody knows for sure. The vast majority of voters are not like us, intently following this story. And yet as polls clearly show most people feel for whatever reason they've been had. What polls don't show (yet, anyway) is what I think we can all be fairly certain of, that a large majority also knows which party it is that's taking them for a ride here.
After all, it's not like this is an isolated incident. After Gore's 747 planeload of lawyers failed to steal the 2000 presidential election the democrats have made suing and cheating their way into office almost a standard operating procedure. They've switched candidates after established deadlines, run spouses of deceased candidates, and tried to sue even in Ohio. Geeky terms like distributed vote fraud may not have filtered down to the masses but these things do have an impact and I doubt it has escaped most peoples attention that one party will take power any way it can while the other still has some principles.
It's because of those principles, and because Rossi's doing such a highly principled job on the revote issue, that I think at this point we should continue pressing for a revote. But it's not like the case is so clear-cut, and we can afford to totally tune out the message from guys like Fund and Gibson either.
Well, that's just perfect. Trolls telling informed people to take a clue from the clueless.
Jeeze, just because it works for you doesn't mean it's going to work for people interested in truth and honesty.
The real problem for you is that when you say, "Look, we stole the election fair 'n square, get over it," there are people with character who aren't listening. It isn't honorable to "get over it." The correct course of action is to to root out miscreants and enforce consequences. We do it with bankrobbers and it should be done with election thievery.
BTW, and I do hope this isn't too subtle for you...obviously bankrobbers are guilty. But the armed guards who turn the other way and allow the entry are guilty as well for their complicity. It would be pure folly for the Reps to trust the foxes guarding the hen house to clean up the mess.
hmmm...how many metaphors did I mix there...lost count...
37. I love how the left selectively uses the opinion of two people (Gibson and Reed) who happen to disagree with the vast majority of Republicans about one issue as so-called "proof" that we are all raving lunatics. It was the same way with John O'Neil and Richard Clarke. The MSM and the left were absolutely obsessed with these individuals because they had critical things to say that were not the opinion of most conservatives. Gibson doesn't speak for me, the evidence of malfeasance does.
38. To hell with all the 'beating around the bush.' I am saying that while it may be expedient to focus on 'mistakes' as a basis for invalidating the result of the third recount and ergo the election. The final recount tally was the result of out and out FRAUD, plain and simple. If it were not so transparent the results of independant Statewide polls would not be so lopsided in favor of invalidating the entire election.
39. How's this for a metaphor?
If gangrene is eating away at a wound, you must CUT out the gangrene and sterilize the wound. If you merely bandage it up and hope it will get better on its own, you will wind up with gangrene everywhere and the need to amputate.
40. Shannon...works for me. My inclination is to jump to the amputate stage. But there are people in charge for whom working the process correctly matters, and for whom the question of integrity matters. I am deeply grateful for their efforts.
“Mr. Gibson, it pains me to say this, but you have no clue what a hornet's nest you stepped into here. You may begin by being quiet and listening to words of wisdom.
Back down? Not for a second, and not an inch.”
“Well, that's just perfect. Trolls telling informed people to take a clue from the clueless[...]BTW, and I do hope this isn't too subtle for you...obviously bankrobbers are guilty. But the armed guards who turn the other way and allow the entry are guilty as well for their complicity. It would be pure folly for the Reps to trust the foxes guarding the hen house to clean up the mess.
hmmm...how many metaphors did I mix there...lost count...”
Just wanted to congratulate you...coming from me (and thus, for what it is worth), you win the “That’s what I think” award! Good and Sound reasoning…
42. I think highly of John Gibson. He obviously suffered from a brain f@rt here.
43. Jaybo said:
"I will not listen to the KVI 570 afternoon show until Gibson leaves, he's a bombastic twit."
These are my thoughts EXACTLY!
KVI has temporarily lost a listener by choosing this fool.
Welcome back John Carlson!
I called KVI on the first day Gibson was running this argument....(If that's what you can call it...)
The lines were very busy - but I finally got through. I was asked my name and told to call back at 5pm.....I called back but couldn't get through until 5:45. A guy answered and asked me what I intended to say to Gibson - I told him - then he said "OK I'm going to put you on"...I waited and waited then the line disconnected!
The Carlson show had ended for the day....
I was going to tell Gibson that his worry that OUR election contest may set some precedence for future elections - (that the Dems may use against us) was absurd! He kept referring to the 2000 Gore/Bush Florida fiasco - yet he never seemed to make the connection that it was the Dems who, during that election, set the precedence for extreme election litigation! And to think that we humble Republicans could possibly teach the masters of creative litigation (Democrats are truly the masters!) anything..is just silly!
Comparing Gores desperate legal challenge in the 2000 Presidential election to our Gubernatorial contest is like comparing apples to oranges! This election contest is about so much more than the Governors race! It is about exposing watered down laws and loopholes, illegal procedures, lax registration verifications, illegal voting, etc...
These problems have been constant in this states elections - especially in King County where they are AGAIN attempting to sweep them under the rug! (See Pattersons version of election reform).... (So there ya go Mr. Gibson!..)
We all know that something hokey has been going on with the Washington State elections for years!
Even without the annual parade of mistakes and firings and resignations and citizen review boards......We all knew in our gut! When King County would take 2 weeks to complete their final tally - well after the other counties..and always seemed to know just how many votes were needed for their darlings to win. The *found* or *lost* ballots, delayed or duplicate mailings, all of those voters who *live* in the county buildings..but have their mail sent to Canada....The Dems must have a book written by now on how to effectively pad the count.
The biggest problem with our elections is the Machine that has been controlling the laws, the tallys, the registrations, the mailings, the control of the ballots, the software, etc....
That machine has been run by the Liberal Democrats for 20 years - with it's best fine tuning over the past 10!
When the largest populated county in the state elections are run by partisan Democrats - there is NO SUCH THING AS A FAIR STATE ELECTION! King County, with it's numbers, knows it has had the power to control the entire state election outcome....King Countys laws are set up so they can hire partisan election officials. They are the only county to not use an election auditor. Ron Sims can hand pick his canvassing board. In King County - the entire election program is rigged from the beginning to the certification.....
That is why this election contest is so popular among the people. It's so much more than Gregoire and Rossi!
people go to court everyday.
Florida 2000 was not a valid case, Gore lost. That case was Dems manipulating the system as usual with a big spoiled brat at the helm.
WA 2004 is a valid case because it is based on principle. if it was Gregoire the attorney (spoiled only child) who had lost by 129 (42 or 261), she would have still won, but in court, just not in Chelan.
people like you Mr Gibson deserve a corrupt government, we here in WA will fight for a just government, something we haven't had for several decades. So John, watch WA become a RED state and we will expect your on-air apology.
46. I think we are all revolted by the ignorant antics of John Gibson this week, and many of us simply won't tune in. I took it a step further by sending an e-mail expressing my disgust to John Carlson's producer. Take a moment and do this. Loud voices! I wish KVI's advertisers would give them a piece of their collective minds, too!
Here's an email I sent Mr. Gibson after hearing him on local talk radio.
John, I always enjoy your programs and your comments. As a someone from the Seattle burbs, however, I think you've got it wrong about the court case in the Washintgon governor's election.
First, you're wrong when you say Rossi is looking for a judge to declare him the winner. The case is about whether the law was violated in the election, especially in light of thousands of "magical mystery ballots" where the law was clearly not followed. As a voter, I'm not looking for the judge to declare a winner, but simply for a judge to examine whether the election was illegally condcted. We're not talking about whether the judge thinks the result was nice, we're talking about whether he determines that the law was grossly violated.
Second, I think you're wrong when you say that that the Republicans need to keep quiet about this because they're inviting the Democrats to do the same thing. Two aspects to this issue: One, I don't care *who* wins in an election as fishy as this one was. The apparent negligence of election officials needs to be looked at by the legal system. In the future, if the Democrats think they can prove the law was violated, let them do it. Two, the Democrats do not need the Republicans to set "precedent" in this kind of situation. They will do whatever they think will benefit them, regardless of what the Republicans have done or not done.
I think if you knew more about the particulars of this election, you might feel differently. What you are recommending is equivalent to telling someone whose house was burglarized that he shouldn't report it, because the criminals are adept at manipulating the legal system.
John Gibson is wrong on this issue, just as Michael Medved is wrong on Bush's immigration plan and Kirby and John Carlson are wrong about other specific issues. Gibson does not realize that WA is the most of the rest of the US turned inside out. He'll have to visit here and maybe he is better on TV, but he sounds pretty good on other national issues. The Democrat machine rules here and it will take the people standing up against it before that cycle is broken.
This Governor race contest has shown the light on a number of other aspects of fraud, corruption and bad judgment heaped on the people of this state by the Democrats in power, which is all the more reason to keep pushing. Democrats in this state are worse than in most states, I would venture to say. Tim Eyman in his initiatives represents the law of unintended consequences and the best way to take care of business to sweep the socialist, rifraf lame-a** legislators out of Olympia in 2006 and get the ball rolling before then in Nov. 2005 with a new Governor election, where Dino Rossi will start the ball rolling and let Gregoire be a lobbyist or a red diaper doper baby - as her roots indicate...
Do you all actually listen to yourselves? Are you really so unsure of your position that someone taking the opposite point of view on the radio has you up in arms? Is it impossible for you to see that your point of view might not be the only one possible.
Lets face it, the facts are quite clear at this point.
1) Rossi ran a good race, Gregoire ran a poor race.
2) It was a close election.
3) After the final tally, Gregoire was the winner.
4) Rossi has the right to a challange, but his case is weak (both on policy, no judge wants to be in the position to overturn an election), and on legal grounds).
5) There were mistakes in the running of the elections. All good people should want these mistakes taken care of without making it harder for legimate voters to vote.
6) There was no fraud.
7) There was no vote stuffing.
8) There is no way to show any of the errors in the system caused votes to go in one direction or the other, everything is just speculation.
9) None of the errors in the system were done to try to help one canidate over another.
10) (Repeat with me, this goes for liberals with Florida problems too) There is no great conspiracy which, if only everyone else that is not as smart as me would open their eyes and believe just as I do, we could defeat.
And I would agree with the posters that says this is nothing like Florida. After all, in Florida, the over all percentage difference was smaller, I believe, and there was a proven error that helped one canidate (the butterfly ballot), and partisans that would rather do what is right for their party over doing their job. Add to that the fact that Gore got the popular vote, and I see your logic clearly. Or is it simply that in Florida, the person you wanted to win was declared the winner while in Washington, the person you wanted to win lost?
And where was all your worries about the problems in the system during the initial count or recount? If you have no idea who one when Gregoire has won, how can you have any idea who won when Rossi was ahead? It cuts both ways, and yet no yelling about all these problems when your person was ahead..., strange.
And stop with the 20 years of machine politics paranoia. First of all, the Republicans had control of King County until about 1990. Second, they have had control of one or both houses of the legislature for most of the last 20 years. Plus the AGs office until 12 years ago. And this in a state with very week parties. I hate to tell you this, but this state has been a progressive to liberal state for most of its 116 years. With the exception of Slade Gorton (who got more conservative as he stayed in power), name one conservative that has run well state wide since, oh, 1950?
And it isn't because their is a powerful party that is stuffing the ballots, it is because that is what the population of this state believes. (Note, even a inititive trying to ban so called "partial birth abortion" failed by around 60% just six or seven years ago).
You have arguements, but so does the otherside. If you can't face that, you are in for a very bumpy ride. If anyone who dares says otherwise is a heretic, and you can only listen to your own self congradulatory, pat your-self on the back for being so clever, mastubatory proclamations, you are in bad shape. First, because you won't be able to critically look at the facts and, second, because you will never be able to convince someone you are right.
I stopped listening to Gibsons show after the first day.....I'm curious though - Did he ever deliver a *Punch Line*? It just seemed as though he was trying to get someone to make some specific argument in favor of our contest that he had already conceived....So he could say "That's what I've been waiting for!"
Did he ever do this? Or was he sincere in his disappointment over the contest?
Either way - he took it way too far...
How could anybody possibly know the answers to 6,7,8,& 9 without an extensive investigation?
This must be why there are provisions for an election contest.
Call the fourth witness!
Yo JDB, (AKA Bitemejeff@hotmail.com)
First of all...Go back to your liberal blog. If you can't handle reading what's posted in here by conservative minded people - then don't visit!
Second - don't butcher my post's with your rhetorical nonsense! I hate when people like you post BS as fact! I'm sick of it! WE ARE ALL SICK OF IT! We know what's been revealed with the elections. We know you can't sweep it under the rug...So please don't insult us.
Yes Mr biteme,
There WERE serious problems with our election. Yes! They have been going on and escalating for years! Yes! The liberal Democrat machine is responsible for the dramatic escalation over the past 10 years at least.
Rossi's case is SOLID and getting stronger every day! (As does his support!)
I know you don't want to know this - but there are serious issues that will come out about our elections - especially King Countys role...
So - go back to point-counter-point land....and do not mess with my post's again.
Thank you - and that's more than I give most trolls.
Can someone help me?
Gibson kept saying that "John Carlson is a litigant in this lawsuit". As far as I know, John is not. Is this just one more point that Gibson was wrong on or have I missed something?
Fair question. I was running long, so I forgot this part of my rant:
Let's not forget the teams of high price lawyers that the Bush and Kerry campaigns had looking at everything, and all of the observers from both parites that have been watching things from the day of the election onward. It is not like this was all done in locked rooms. Everything was observed from day one. And even John Carlson has to agree with the observers who call in and say everything went swimingly.
To this point, no one has made an actualy claim of fraud. Sure, some people use the word, but they don't mean it. John Carlson says fraud, but name one instance he has talked about where someone intentionaly tried to stuff ballots or change votes. Stefan says "distributed vote fraud" which is a nice made up term, but had no meaning. Fraud requires intent. All Stefan complains about is that the errors occured where they could have hurt Rossi the most. They did, but no one intentionaly did that. Being sloppy doesn't make it fraud, even if that term sells your position better.
If you could show that the error were intentional and done to change the outcome of the election, you might have a case. But to this day, no one has claimed any facts to support 6-9.
I should note, in fairness, while a full and fair recount of Florida would have probably given the race to Gore in 2000, I don't think Fraud cost him the state. There were stupid mistakes and the errors that naturally come when you count several million of anything, but no actual fraud.
And finally, and I think this is what most annoys me about the general level of discourse I hear on these talk radios and sites like this. This is a great State. This is my home, and while I have lived in many other places across this great nation, I can't think of any place I rather be. And it isn't like this state has gotten more liberal with the years, this state has always been progressive, and was more liberal just 25 years ago. The Democrats are not trying to destroy this state, and in fact, lets face it, have done a ton good that makes this state as great as it is. You might disagree, but that doesn't make the other side evil. And stop acting the victim, it doesn't become you, and it simply isn't true.
Lastly, do yourself a favor, go out and read the other side with an open mind, and read your side critically. There is elightenment and snake oil on both sides, but you will never find the truth if you only listen to those you agree with.
My Dear Ms. Deborah:
I have given you an answer, it is not my job to give you an understanding.
If there is a problem with my arguement, please point it out. I know what you believe, but I note that none of your posts cite a single fact in support. If I believe a giant pink bunny rabbit won the election, that doesn't make it true.
And, since you are repeating one of Carlson's old canards, When the first recount occured, was their a great conspiracy in Republican Benton County to be the last to report so they knew exactly how many votes were necessary to swing the count to Rossi? Gregoire was ahead (by, if memory serves me right, a whole seven votes), so obviously the GOP held Benton to make sure they could fraud their way to the top. My facts? Exactly the same of yours.
And, if everyone in King County were so nefarious, surely they could have made sure during the initial election count and made this a whole lot cleaner. Goodness, they really are stupid.
Despite your gracious invitation to try other sites, I think I will drop by here from time to time still. After all, this is one of the few conseravative sites that doesn't have a connection to gay prostitution. More importantly, while there are a few people who actually engage in conversation here, given the normal level of rhetoric here, there is a need for a calm sensible voice. It is sort of fun to be the last rational man. Plus, you just might learn something, and as we learned from Fat Albert, that might just make it all worth it.
I hope you get over your misguided anger. Maybe in the long run we can work on making this state everything it should be.
...and somebody needs to tell Gibson just WHO went to a judge first in this election....Dems! Helloooooo, Judge Dean Lum!
and Dems shouldn't get all excited about this. Gibson is the first Rep I've heard in the whole country who disagrees. Not a very good percentage, if you're on the x-tine side. Not at all.
JDB, you're wasting your time criticizing everyone for suspecting fraud in a 129 vote race.
Why don't you go to the Ohio democrat blogs and spend some energy berating THEM for crying foul over a 120K+ loss???
Those are people who REALLY need some sense knocked into them....
JDB, et al,
You represent a species among the most noxious of trolls. You come here day after day, proffering the party line of seminar headquarters blather in a pseudo calm and rational voice. Informed and impassioned bloggites fall prey to your trap, and address your half-truths and flaws of fact and fancy point-by-point. To which you respond with apparent non-hearing, restocking the mousetrap with the cheese of miss-fact and illogic for the next kind Samaritan who happens by. You retreat each day to the shelter of whatever bridge support that has the pleasure of you company, only to return the next day, refreshed and renewed by campaign headquarters as if having your RAM cleansed by a re-boot. All of this with the blithe unawareness that you’re about to have your lunchbox returned to you empty as on all previous days.
We all enjoy informed and spirited debate. Yours is really neither. It is more an amalgam of misinformation and the dogged adherence to the party line under the guise of calm. It is much more worthwhile to engage a dog that can learn new tricks.
Your name may be Joe or JDB or Carla…it doesn’t matter. It’s all the same drivel. We’ve heard it all before and found it sadly lacking and unsubstantive. Do you really think that someone may actually read your stuff and say, “Jeeze, I wish I would have thought of this years ago…here they’ve been correct all along!” Do you really think that you’ll gain converts? Have you ever actually seen intelligent people lining up for pre-frontal lobotomies at the community health care clinic? Oh! Wait, I get it…I’ll just disconnect my education and years of experience, well…just ‘cause you said so…I mean you are calm.
Jeeze, being obtuse as a positive character trait. What a novel idea!
Many people view “The Stepford Wives” as a cautionary tale about conformity running amok. There is a shocking and ominous alarm about the carefully scripted calm that masks the unpleasant truth. The real shocker is that the “Stepfordized” wives defend the system. The unpleasant truth for you in this allegorical tale is that you are represented not by the husbands or the reader, but by the wives.
Let me sum it up for you. You are the captain of the mousetrap. And, yeah, I do mix metaphors. So sue me. Lucy...well, no, I did'nt forget you. It would probably take several years of committed therapy for you to reach their level of accomplishment.
FTR, I’m not gonna bother writing this out again. I’m going to save it and cut-and-paste as necessary.
59. gibson is out of touch with the realities in the state of washington. His viewpoint of this issue on the carlson show was an indication of misunderstanding and an outsider looking in without any idea of the internal discourse with the political turmoil in this election. he does not know that in the state of washington constitution parties have a legal right to contenst an election. gibson needs to stick to international issues. I lost a lot of respect for him with this issue.
John Fund says today re: J Gibson
2004 dems filed 65 cases, lost all cases.
John Fund agrees with us and he carries more weight than Gibson.
Fund also believes we WILL have a new election.
I have no need for converts. But I do realize that there are non fanatics who might read these pages due to coverage in the MSM and that they might enjoy some rational, fact based arguements.
I will note that like most of the arguements on this site, yours was totally devoid of a single fact, and was just a personal attack against people you don't like. Last I looked, that is the definition of a troll.
I have read a lot of what peopple here believe, or feel in their guts. So far, I have yet to see any facts that support anything other than what we all know, that there were errors and mistakes. If that is all you got, let's drop the name calling and pipe dreams about Rossi being governor and start discussing meaningful elections reform.
You can always tell a weak arguement if it consist totally of name calling or sticking your fingers in your ears and going "blah blah blah, I'm not listening, blah blah blah." Perhaps you should just cut and paste that since it would be a lot shorter and add up to the same thing.
Personally, I take great joy in your paranoia and the way you try to destroy one of your own if they don't prostate themselves in front of every bit of your orthodoxy. But I keep looking forward to being engaged by someone that has some courage to their convications, and maybe, just maybe, a fact or two to back their arguement up. Maybe you are right, and I am just casting pearls before swine, but I don't think so lowly of your fellow posters.
I love the way that the issue is always "masked" by throwing out arguements like, "show us the fraud".
I posted one message that intimated that there is a common thread that passes through the election controversies in Washington, Wisconsin, Ohio and Florida. Here is what I see.
First, the democrats have been pumping what they feel is their best shot at regaining power through the political process. It is summarized in the statement, "count every vote". The importance of what this really means remains largely unknown in my opinion.
"Count Every Vote", means making sure that every effort is made through groups that are sympathetic to the democrats to break down the voting process state by state, through legislation, so that the voter rolls can be filled with individuals that normally would not qualify as legitimate voters and make it more difficult to stop illegitimate voters and voter fraud. This was the motivation for the "Motor Voter Act". I will never understand how republicans could have allowed this to pass.
What the democrats learned from Florida was that litigation alone would not allow them to change the results of close elections, especially as they continued to see an erosion of their base (remember they had tried to dis-allow the military absentee ballots in 2000?).
After the "Motor Voter Act" was passed, it didn't take long for groups like "Moveon.org" to see how it could be used to their advantage. So they set to work throughout the U.S. to pump up the voter rolls. In states like Wisconsin, democrats were able to further break down the elections process so that you could then easily imitate a Ukrainian result.
This is why the democrats are silent about Washington and Wisconsin, but casting doubt on Florida and Ohio with accusations of disenfranchisement of voters. The goal is to motivate the state governments into further legislation that would match California, Washington and Wisconsin.
If they can succeed in doing this, they can use both litigation and this new form of voting fraud (now legalized) to change the results in close elections accross the country.
Is this organized? I'm not sure. I do, however, see a disturbing pattern. I also wonder how many other state elections were affected in the manner that Wisconsin and Washington were effected. We may never know if someone doesn't take the initiative to investigate the possibility.
JDB- I challenge to prove your ridiculous assertions sent at 10:38PM last night (2/16).
Nice try with the talking points from Paul Behrens, et.al but they don't wash.
Try them on horsesass.com and satisfy your constituents with the wishful thinking of your basic pap.
It appears that you have the same problem you accuse conservatives of - you won't listen to opinions that are contrary to yours, regardless of the preponderence of evidence to contradict it. The courts will decide it and we will live with it - that's your side encourages and that's what we'll all get...
64. My understanding is that Rossi does not have to prove fraud. He only has to prove that there were enough anomalies that make the outcome of the election "in doubt". With the number of felons, dead people, and unregulated provisional ballots, I think it's pretty clear there is enough doubt. I'm no expert in the letter of the law in this instance, but to me it sounds like he has a pretty strong case.
65. By the way, there was fraud in the 2004 Governor election - distributed from the top down in King County and several other counties. The numbers speak for themselves and therein lies the proof.
66. Facts for JDB:
1. Demos first to court, getting a King County Judge to order the county to disclose it's list of provisional voters. This seems to me to violate at least the spirit if not the letter of law concerning privacy in voting. This court ruling resulted in the action listed in (2) below.
2. Ms Gregoire's mantra was "count every vote". But "Ryan Bianchi, communications assistant for the Gregoire campaign, said the canvassers knock on doors and ask if the person is a gregoire voter. 'If they say no, we just tell them to have a nice day,' he said. If they say yes, then they continued with the process" Count every vote? Did she mean count every vote but only if it is for me? Quotes are from the Seattle Times, Nov 14, 2004.
3. Dean Logan admits "I think the machine count is going to be more accurate than the manual count"
4. King County elections workers allowed several hundred provisional ballots to be counted without prior certification, which is illegal. Honest mistakes or not, it is still improper and illegal. If one makes an honest mistake and violates the law, it is still an illegal act.
5. Many instances of additional ballots showing up after the first count and the machine recount which shows very sloppy management of a very sensitive and important process, to say the very least.
6. Many of the ballots that were "enhanced" by elections workers so the machine could read them were done so illegally, in that the original markings of the voter could not be seen.
Again, you miss my point. Which, in reality was the point of my last post. So you actually proved my point.
Time and again people on these pages have listed fact, sorted facts from opinion, and carried on a variety of discussions about the legal ramifications.
None of this matters to you folks. You keep chanting these various and assorted mantras..."no facts"..."elections over"..."problems and we'll fix it next time"..."If the shoe was on the other foot"... and on and on.
So, over the last couple of hours, you managed to get some more good folks to list still even more facts.
Yet it won't make the least bit of difference to you. You'll revert back to the same mantras again, intent on never giving an inch.
I called you a troll, you and your ilk, and then accurately described your behavior, which behavior pretty much decscribes the definition of being a troll. This isn't a grad course, requiring a defense before a panel, with footnotes and citations. Why would I need to list facts about your behavior? You can scroll up and read your posts as easily as I can.
I could go back and do an analysis of your posts, point by point. But you are the only one who could possibly get anything out of it...everyone else understands. And you've made it clear that you think what you do is a good idea.
At least Lucy is willing to admit that she has her head in the sand...something I've never quite understood, being decapitated and all.
In refernce to my last post I am adding this supporting documentation.
"Kerry, who lost the national contest by 3.3 million votes nationwide, and 118,000 within Ohio, denied the bill was an attempt to discredit the 2004 results.
"This has nothing to do with me," said Kerry. "It is not partisan, or shouldn't be."
Clinton echoed those comments, though her senatorial re-election committee, Friends of Hillary, is pushing the bill hard.
Visitors to the group's Web site are greeted first with a full-page form asking people to endorse the Count Every Vote Act.
"My Web site has information about everything I work on. This is one of my biggest priorities and obviously I hope that people who share our goal of making sure every vote counts will support us," said Clinton.
In addition to creating a federal holiday for voting, the bill would:
_Require paper receipts for votes.
_Authorize $500 million to help states make the changes in voting systems and equipment.
_Allow ex-felons to vote. Currently an estimated 4.7 million Americans are barred from voting because of their criminal records.
_Require adoption of the changes in time for the 2006 election.
Boxer said the bill "is meant to ensure the election debacle of 2000, and the serious election irregularities of 2004, never ever happen again."
Both parties have called for changes to ensure a more accurate vote count. Republican efforts have centered on reducing voter fraud, while Democrats have called for making access to the ballot box easier and simpler.
Robin in Tacoma:
Since I have some time, and someone actually desided to argue instead of name call, I'll respond on an almost dead thread.
1) I said nothing against going to court. In fact, I stated that Rossi had every right to go to court, but that it is a bad case. I will also note that there is not privacy in the fact that you voted or not, this very web site thrives on the fact that voting is a public act. Who you vote for is private, but not wether you voted. Even you admit this is not illegal. And, since the court granted it, by definition, it is legal.
2) Note, not fraud, not illegal, but I will grant you a bit hypocritical. However, the Republicans did the same thing in Rossi leaning counties, and had every opportunity to do the same thing in King County. As far as I know, they did. But, again, this is not fraud, nor is it improper, it is just partisan politics. I didn't expect the Rossi get out the vote drive to bring Gregoire voters to the polls.
3) Note: Dean Logan did not say it would be, just that is what he thought. As Sam Reed stated, in some ways the machine count is more accurate, and in some ways the hand recount is more accurate. An individual recounting is error prone, but with the redundancies of having teams recount, observers checking, and if there are any questions, a board determining the final outcome makes a hand recount accurate. Plus, since Washington law requires that the intent of the voter determine the final nature of the vote, you have to rely on people since machines cannot do this.
Also, and most importantly, that is what the laws of the state of Washington required. If you have problems with that, change the laws. But I will note that they were just updated in 2002, and that Dino Rossi voted for the updates. So crying about the process just because you think it doesn't work for your canidate, when he supported it, rings a little hollow.
4) You sort of have me on this one. Yes, it was improper to send the 300-400 or so provisional ballots through the machines before they were verified. Whether or not it is illegal, I'm not sure. Many laws require intent for them to be illegal, or at least that the act be knowing. If it was purely a mistake, it is improper, but not illegal. From everything I have read and heard, it is probably the later. I do wonder why the Republican observer didn't try to stop it, but it is spilt milk now.
Two things to remember: 1) No one knows how to whom these votes went, and 2) I believe the verification of provisionals runs around 80-90% (most are for people who have recently moved or where the polling station moved and they showed up at the wrong place). Either way, based upon what the court said during the last hearing (we'll see if Judge Bridge clarifies things today), this would not seem to be enough to throw out the eleciton unless you can show that the votes did swing the election, which you can't.
I would agree with one of the reforms I have heard, which is for provisional ballots to have some sort of distinguishing charerteristic, like being a different color, so they could be pulled if such a mistake happened again. That seems like a very rational reform.
5) I agree with you on five. As I've said, I hope after all this is over we can actually constructivly work on those problems. I will note that it will probably cost money. I happen to think that one of the sources of the problems we have seen is that elections offices have been easy to cut over the last 15- 20 years of tax cuts in this state. People scream if you touch their parks, schools or roads. But hold the Auditors office personel stable, and don't upgrade your procedures, even though the population has gotten much bigger, and who complains, at least until the system starts to show the strain.
6) I have heard a lot of variations on how the ballots were enhanced. My understanding is that the ballots were in general enhanced in such a way that the original marks could be uncovered if necessary. At worse, some of the enhancements might have been improper, but I don't think anyone seriously thinks they were illegal.
I will note that this was not done behind locked doors, and I have yet to hear someone say that they saw a vote enhanced in a way that changed the vote. There probably should be a better system, given my understanding of the State Auditor's concerns, but again, none of this shows fraud or a change in the election totals.
Were mistakes made? Again, I have said from day one, yes. But I have paid more than a little attention to this whole debate, and I have yet to hear a single case of actual fraud or ballot tampering. At this point, it is Rossi (and, by extention, his supporters at sites like this) burden to prove that the results were intentionally changed. Saying that there were mistakes should not be enough (otherwise, what is your criteria for a win should there be a revote? If Rossi wins a revote by 300 votes, do we have revote II? No system is perfect, there will always be errors).
If there is more, I would like to hear it. But what I usually hear here are personal attacks and lots of beliefs. Which brings us back to the orgins of this thread. Gibson, a good, true blue conservative, is subject to the wrath of many of you, because he challanges your orthodoxy. This is what happens when you base your arguements on feelings and beliefs and not facts.
First of all it is Robert, not Robin. OK, not illegal but very underhanded I think. (CG: we must count every vote!). Yes the Republicans did the same, but only after the Dems got the court order from the Judge to allow it.
I do believe, without doing a quick double check so I may mistaken, that SoS Reed qualified his statement about machine vs hand and said that there is a greater chance for human error in a hand recount. If we had 100% reliable people doing the recount in a 100% reliable situation, I will grant you that. But keep in mind that observers are looking at ballots upside down and sometimes from a slight distance instead of along side the counters and canvesers.
The fact that no knows who the questionable provisional ballots went to is enough in my opinion by itself to throw out this ellection, being as that number is about twice as much as the margin of victory. As far as fraud goes, notice I do not accuse anyone of that. But there are more than a few cases of illegal voting by felons and there are many questionable addresses given as "home" when they are in fact mailing boxes. Honest mistake? Possibly some but that is what will hopefully come out in this court case.
Please do not group me with people who attack others just because their side is not winning. Keep in mind that Rossi won the first two counts and was, in fact, certified by the SoS as the winner after the first recount. If the shoe was on the other foot, I wouldn't like it but I would have to agree that it was a proper thing to do to make sure the right person won the election.
One more thing and this is personal opinion: I think CG and Democratic Party lost a HUGE chance at gaining voter respect and bringing over middle of the roaders to them by not agreeing that the election seemed to flawed. Can you immagine the political capital they would have gained? And even if CG had called for a revote, chances are that the state would have said no, and then she would have been in office and able to say "I tried to change it but the legal findings said no", etc.
Sorry, I should have gotten your name correct.
Since Judge Bridges has thrown out the re-vote, I think just saying "I don't know" is enough. That is way too low of a standard. I don't think that the court will set the bar that low for the removal of a sitting governor. As I have said in the thread about the latest rulings, I think that the judge in that case will say, fine, but the constitution has been followed, the legislature has confirmed it, the fact that I can't be sure should not override what is, in the end, a political question.
And I agree with you that I would run some of Govenor Gregoire's public relations differntly. Although I doubt I would tell her to step down any more than any Republican was telling Rossi to do the same thing after the first two recounts (after all, if there is more than enough error for you to not know when Gregoire won, there was enough error for you not to know when Rossi won). I think it is good that they have Gregoire moving around, being active. The more she acts as Governor, the less that the Rossi challange maters.
We might not agree on anything, but I appreciate that you are willing to have a conversation about it. Maybe others can learn form what we say.
72. JDB: Agreed. The only way to constructively exchange ideas is to keep from the name calling.
I only have a few minutes here, things to do. One must keep in mind that early in the voting when Rossi won twice, there was very little to investigate about the voting process. What little there was had to do with those issues the Dems raised (that we both agree were disingenuous (sp?)) to say the least and the sudden appearance in several counties of additional ballots. Given time, if there were discrepancies that gave Rossi the edge, those would have surfaced and been discussed. And, I do believe the MSM would have taken a much more active roll in rooting out the troubles. That said, I still think the biggest problems are the roughly 1800 more ballots than voters in King County, the admitted 300 plus improperly cast provisional ballots, and 200 plus more ballots than voters in Snohomish County, who also had a sudden last minute appearance of a batch of previously uncounted votes. I still cannot understand how a system cannot reconcile one for one voiting: 1 signature at the polls matching 1 ballot counted. You talk about the law, but if we are sticking right to the letter, what about the ballots that were "missed" in the first count? Technically those should not have been recounted. A judge decided they could but it went against existing state laws. So, if a judge could do that, what about the current lawsuit?