Over the years my opinion of FOX News anchor John Gibson has evolved. Particularly because he can now be such a formidable interviewer - his stock has been rising. I relied on his series of reports (and book of the same name) entitled “Hating America – The New World Sport” – while braving the onslaught of venomous Anti-Americanism broadcast by the BBC World Service while traveling in Africa last Spring.
More recently, during the late stages of the 2004 Presidential Campaign – when Gibson’s interview of Liberal Brahmin (and shadow Secretary of State) Richard Holbrooke on the last-gasp Kerry effort to create scandal regarding missing Iraqi explosives - prompted the neutralizing Holbrooke admission: “I don’t know the truth” – proved pivotal in ending Kerry’s chances. Because of that, Gibson can be viewed as impressive by any standard.
So I always see it as something of a compliment when Gibson heads our way to do talk radio – like he has this week on KVI. Yesterday, however, was surreal - as Gibson said Republicans should back down and go away on the revote litigation – that they had, in effect, overplayed their political hand. I say Gibson’s just plain wrong on that, and here’s why:
This generation of Republicans has never been more united – and Dino Rossi is the reason for that unity. Look, I hold a center left political perspective, but I have been a Republican since watching Ronald Reagan’s historic swearing-in on the west front of the Capitol in 1981 – the day the Hostages were freed in Iran. It was truly morning again in America. Rossi, and Reagan before him, are uniters. We need to support our Champion. And the Revote challenge does just that.
Like Gibson, some of our elected Republicans urge to take that feeling of sympathetic support (like you, I regularly hear from enormously disaffected Democrats), and go on to win another day. Fold your battle flags, they say, and come out strong in two years. Well, these are not mutually exclusive ideas. I say, do both!
This from John Fund in yesterday’s Opinion Journal:
Lo and behold, looking at today’s Seattle Times, if there is a single byline written on the revote, I sure can’t find it."If you want to get on local news, it's easier to be in a freak accident than to run for local office," says Marty Kaplan, a professor at the University of Southern California who worked on the study. The most extreme example occurred in Seattle, where 95% of all local newscasts ignored the state's hotly contested race for governor. "Time spent on teasers, bumpers and intro music" on Seattle local newscasts outweighed airtime devoted to the gubernatorial race by 14 to 1, concluded researchers. Given that Republican Dino Rossi surprised everyone by battling Democrat Christine Gregoire to a near-tie (an outcome still being challenged by Mr. Rossi in court) some Republican wags are joking that no local news coverage of their candidates may literally be good news for the GOP.
John Fund has consistently reported on this story, and assiduously reminded readers of the national angle here with regard to the Red State/ Blue State dynamic. Mr. Gibson, where have you been? Under Dino Rossi’s leadership, the “upper left-hand corner” has become a quilt of Right-Wingers, NeoCons, Left-Center “Dan Evans” Republicans, Libertarians and “Dinocrats” poised to send this state back into the red. The Democrats may complain about the heat from the revote bonfire, but it is shining a lot of light as well – so bright, in fact, that FOX News just might be able to see it from inside the Beltway. So please, Mr. Gibson:
You report. We’ll decide.
(Hat tip to Sound Politics reader RiceRPFP)
Posted by P. Scott Cummins at February 16, 2005 12:00 PM | Email ThisHe did to me what he did to everyone else including Mary Lane from Dino Rossi's campaign. He let's the caller make half a point then interrupts with an irritating retort that often has little to do with the point being made.
So I have two beefs with John Gibson: He doesn't do talk radio well, and he's a sissified wimp who's afraid of the big scary Democrats.
Maybe his style works well in interviews with shady characters who won't offer the truth, but these aren't professionals calling in. They're honest citizens who have views that are both reasoned and emotional for them.
As for his fear of retaliation, he needs to wake up. Republicans are behind the curve on litigating elections, so winning one on lawful terms can't hurt us. The opposite is true. Depending on how this is handled it may be an opportunity to put a little fear of the public into election worker, dishonest bureaucrats and politicians in this state.
Posted by: JB on February 16, 2005 12:18 PMIf the shoe was on the other foot the Dems would be in court and THE MSM WOULD BE ON FIRE.
John's contention is that if Rossi wins it set a precident and legitimacy to increased post election litgation.
I say: "Fooie!" The Dems are ALL ABOUT litgation. This election is a case of no longer accepting the fraud, incompetence, and mal/misfeasance that was the status quo in WA elections.
Posted by: smoke on February 16, 2005 12:28 PM--------------------
Pigs Fly: Re Mr. Cummins' reference to Reagan's morning in America, last week's NYT Book Review review of Paul Lettow's recent book, said this: "Republican presidents should be grateful for the scorn of liberal elites. After they leave office, their reputations have nowhere to go but up. This tendency first became apparent shen historians transformed Dwight Eisenhower from a doddering golfer into a political wizard. ... Now it's threatening to reach epic proportions as Ronald Reagan, famously dismissed by the Washington insider Clark Clifford as 'an amiable dunce,' comes in for reappraisal." And the reappraisal of Reagan in Lettow's book, unlike the agonizing reappraisals of Ike & John Foster Dulles, is powerful & positive.
Then, having given RR a few nice words, the NYT gives two-thumbs-up raves to Michael Medved's Right Turns: "Medved's shift (from left to right)was driven primarily by events in the world: the shocking indifference of his former antiwar brethren to the suffering of the Vietnamese following the Communist victory; ... the inequities of affirmative action; the eagerness of college administrators to abandon academic standards. ... (W)hile Medved's ideals remained intact, early on he began drawing very different lessons from the 60's than most of his contemporariles did. Increasingly he came to see the decade as a time of rampant self-indulgence and moral posturing."
----------------------
So, way to go, NYT! And way to go, USPO, for your Reagan commemorative.
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Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, what I want from you is a subscription to Good Hometraining Magazine. - Ron Sims, via David Boze, KTTH
I do find it amusing that almost no one will agrees with him or will let him talk about anything else. It'll be fun to see if he gets another earful today. Posted by: SheriJo on February 16, 2005 01:12 PM
His thoughts are that this kind of sloppy elections outcome is just part of the process. And, in truth, not as bad as it is in New Jersey so what are we complaining about?
When the caller brought this statement to his attention, he tried to backtrack on it.
He also claimed that the National Republicans were dead-set against what we are doing. If that is the thinking in the beltway, republicans are in trouble.
I am amazed that they are not able to put together the pieces of what could be an insidious puzzle.
What does post-election Washington, Wisconsin, Florida and Ohio have in common now?
I will not listen to the KVI 570 afternoon show until Gibson leaves, he's a bombastic twit.
Posted by: jaybo on February 16, 2005 01:27 PMI've watched the Demos operate in this state for a long time, and it seems like all they try to do is hoodwink the voters. Their main talent is argueing how many angels (or should I say lawyers) can dance on the head of a pin. They have the intelligence of the Devil, and the tenacity of a Doberman Pincer. God help us all!
To SMOKE: You say "Fooie!", I say "Phooey!" Now the "new" spelling can join the "new" math. lol
Well, they have finished counting the votes in Iraq, and guess what? Christine Gangrene got 129 votes!-----can you believe it?
Posted by: Archangel on February 16, 2005 01:33 PMIn any case, to stand down means we give the Democrats free rein to cheat to whatever extent they need to from here on out. If we don't press forward, get the changes needed, including a legitimate governor, it is over in this state.
Posted by: Hanna on February 16, 2005 01:37 PM
Well put! I completely agree!
People need to realize that the future is now. Dino Rossi knows this. He has said he doesn't want a political career. For him this is it. Forget about any second-rate consolation prize of running for the Senate against Ne'er-Do-Well (which is a fool's errand anyway since he's very likely to lose that one in a landslide). Now is the time to stand up for yourself and your candidate. It's do or die time, and if we don't fight the fraud now, then when? Why wait for "later" when we have a clear case of proven fraud now? How much better does it get? If we can't prove fraud and fight the cheaters and frauds when it is so clear and obvious, when is there a better chance?
Posted by: Interested Observer on February 16, 2005 02:00 PMI say, no way, we're not gonna take it anymore. And I'm also seeing that a challenge has to have some substance, so , no--the Dems can't just scream a little and get something similar. They're going to have to come up with equally convincing stuff if they want to 'go there'.
Just ignore him.
Posted by: Michele S on February 16, 2005 02:07 PMAnd, of course, because he doesn't follow lock step with you and drink the Kool-aide, he must be ignored. Its nice to see that you all have troubles opening your minds to other conservatives and not just liberals.
And if this is the new Washington Republican party, I say give me more of it and more Chris Vance. You have lost seats in the Senate and House, and other than the AGs office, have picked up nothing else. Heck, your senior state wide office holder, Sam Reed, you want to get rid of. This is about as good as when your party was so united under Pat Robinson. While Rossi, who ran a good campaign, barely lost, with this victim mentality that you are showing, I assume we will be back to the 20 plus point losses of Carlson and Craswell in 08.
Posted by: JDB on February 16, 2005 02:09 PMone said "did you get a revote yet?"
John Gibson is lost my respect when he hung up on Mary Lane.
also, check out the SOS survey on reform.
www.governor.wa.gov/electionreform
The democrat Mafia is EXACTLY what is running the state now.
Posted by: Andy on February 16, 2005 02:50 PMSorry, typing quickly. Robertson. I apparently was having a flash back to Joel Robinson and MST3K.
Posted by: JDB on February 16, 2005 02:54 PMI don't know that the party is more united now, or if those who are active are just more vocal, emotional, and determined to be more active. Doesn't matter to me. Either way, I want more qualified candidates and winners in state and local elections. A fired up and motivated base is about the only way it's going to happen.
A caution...there was a great outpouring of energy in '94 and some real successes. I can see that happening now, yet the real challenge is make it self-sustaining and self-perpetuating. Not having the "tilting at windmills" campaigns that came in the wake of '94. We need candidates where the contrast is similar to Rossi v. CG...a difference so clear on character that even when we disagree amongst ourselves, the base is still motivated.
Note to Gibson: offense or defense? You really need to figure this out.
If we play defense, which is Gibson's position, then the Dems set the rules and the agenda, and are never held accountable for the KC elections mess...and it never has substantive change.
If we play offense, we have a say in the rules and agenda, and WE GET TO WIN! We get to change the upper levels of bureaucrats. We get real performance audits. We get to dismantle DSHS and rebuild it along functional lines. We get to correct the problems in the campaign disclosure stuff...and get this...there is actually the possibility of prosecuting criminals and scoundrals in Democratic fleeces. I don't even want to get started on education reform.
Mr. Gibson, it pains me to say this, but you have no clue what a hornet's nest you stepped into here. You may begin by being quiet and listening to words of wisdom.
Back down? Not for a second, and not an inch.
Posted by: scott158 on February 16, 2005 02:59 PMI'm not listening to KVI this week after what I heard on Monday. I'm sure the ratings will drop while Carlson is away, and I sent him an email to let him knoe that Gibson is not up to the job.
Gibson appears to use the "Schrmabo" technique of acting like a big-shot and generating a lot of controversy to try and stir up callers.
I'd prefer someone who has real arguments and ideas.
No, you prefer someone that agrees with you.
Posted by: JDB on February 16, 2005 03:19 PMJohn Gibson kept asking for folks to call in and to state why this is not a mistake, as he asserted that is was. Well since I didn't get my voice heard on radio yesterday, I'll type it here.
This isn't about who deserves what, it's about making sure that the will of the people is represented in public offices. Translated, this means that the person who wins the votes should be there. We now have every single election official that matters in the "Great State of Washington" publicly stating that they don't know who won (who rec'd the most votes) and then they go even further and state, we may never know.
Well if our system of elections can't tell us these 2 things, which are the only reason we have an election system, then 2 things jump out at me.
A.) We don't know what the will of the people is/are since we don't know who won.
B.) The system needs serious fixing. (I won't go into details here, because bloggers like Stefan & co. are much more capable of doing that.)
So John Gibson here's why it is not a mistake. This is the only way that serious real reform will be invoked and implemented for the current *broken* election system in our state. If "Dino's Gang", (actually I love that name) backs down and lets this die, then the only reform we'll get is what we deserve...Milk Toast, wimpy, political doublespeak bills & measures that will only further hide and enhance the problems not fix them.
The other reason why this isn't a mistake is quite simple. Until the "genuine/real" will of the people can be determined, then quite frankly we are not in line with our constitution, which I remind you clearly puts the power in the people's hands, not some government machine to determine how and when a person should be certified when the overwhelming majority (most election "experts" would say in landslide terms) of the people say that there should be a new election with an improved system in place.
Let me state that yes I understand that it is up to the legislative branch to certify the Governor, but they are supposed to represent their constituents voices, and if the majority (take any poll run in the last 2-3 months) say that they don't think Gregoire won, well I'd like to hear your logic on how the legislative branch could possibly be listening to their constituents (i.e. the people's will).
I hope this is clear enough for you to understand John, (because from what I heard you doing yesterday i.e. mistating facts and trying to lead your callers down your path and not allowing them to finish their thoughts), and that you'll be able to read this w/o interupting, (that however, I doubt)
Cid
Posted by: CidinDupont on February 16, 2005 03:22 PMRossi admits no such thing, because the evidence has yet to be submitted and evaluated. Gibson is also too ignorant to grasp this.
Once the discovery process has gotten under way (can you say 'supoena', or 'testify under oath'?), we'll see some specific examples of misfeasance at least by King County's elections board, and some facts will be brought to light which will show how the MSM has been playing 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' to protect the political class.
Except for the efforts of the Sound Politics blog, the fun aint nearly begun yet.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on February 16, 2005 03:31 PMScott 158, I agree about going on offense rather than defense. That's how Republicans won the Congress in '94.
If we roll over now, then we send the message that there's not really a problem with the election system, that it was all about trying to litigate 'our guy' in.
5 Democrats face trial for slashing GOP tires
It's nice that some authorities are trying to do their job.
Posted by: Shannon K on February 16, 2005 03:42 PM1) The Republican SoS condemns you guys for circulating “rumors of errors, mistakes, illegalities” that “were absolutely incorrect.”
2) FOX News anchor John Gibson sits in on KVI and tells you all that you "should back down and go away on the revote litigation" and that you all have "overplayed their political hand."
Does this lead to thoughtful reflection and the moderation of the more extreme voices on the SP blog - fat chance.
Moving on to the matter at hand which is the fact that machine politics has ruled the day around here for as long as I can remember and will continue to do so until, just like any bully, a stop is put to it by people who are simply not going to take it any more.
A ‘ruling elite’ has run this State for as long as I can remember which has bred a sense of entitlement amongst Democrat Party activists.
There is no way that anyone will ever convince me that there was not a deliberate and systematic attempt to disenfranchise our oversees service members and although we may never be able to prove that top Democrats complicit in the ballot box stuffing I can assure you that Democrat Party activists actively encourage those so inclined to engage in ‘distributed fraud.’
I live in Tacoma and have seen it all when it comes to absolute filth and degeneracy in elected and appointed office. This State is a blue ribbon winner when it comes to political corruption.
Some of the same individuals who were handing bags of cash to Seattle Council members a year or so ago were the same individuals who were convicted of mob connected arson in Tacoma two decades ago while being protected by local politicians. This State’s leaders have come from this same cabal and this is our best chance in decades to finally turn them out.
Personally, I think we are far from the point where Rossi should call it a day. But again, nobody knows for sure. The vast majority of voters are not like us, intently following this story. And yet as polls clearly show most people feel for whatever reason they've been had. What polls don't show (yet, anyway) is what I think we can all be fairly certain of, that a large majority also knows which party it is that's taking them for a ride here.
After all, it's not like this is an isolated incident. After Gore's 747 planeload of lawyers failed to steal the 2000 presidential election the democrats have made suing and cheating their way into office almost a standard operating procedure. They've switched candidates after established deadlines, run spouses of deceased candidates, and tried to sue even in Ohio. Geeky terms like distributed vote fraud may not have filtered down to the masses but these things do have an impact and I doubt it has escaped most peoples attention that one party will take power any way it can while the other still has some principles.
It's because of those principles, and because Rossi's doing such a highly principled job on the revote issue, that I think at this point we should continue pressing for a revote. But it's not like the case is so clear-cut, and we can afford to totally tune out the message from guys like Fund and Gibson either.
Posted by: Chuck Miller on February 16, 2005 04:08 PMJeeze, just because it works for you doesn't mean it's going to work for people interested in truth and honesty.
The real problem for you is that when you say, "Look, we stole the election fair 'n square, get over it," there are people with character who aren't listening. It isn't honorable to "get over it." The correct course of action is to to root out miscreants and enforce consequences. We do it with bankrobbers and it should be done with election thievery.
BTW, and I do hope this isn't too subtle for you...obviously bankrobbers are guilty. But the armed guards who turn the other way and allow the entry are guilty as well for their complicity. It would be pure folly for the Reps to trust the foxes guarding the hen house to clean up the mess.
hmmm...how many metaphors did I mix there...lost count...
Posted by: scott158 on February 16, 2005 04:10 PMIf gangrene is eating away at a wound, you must CUT out the gangrene and sterilize the wound. If you merely bandage it up and hope it will get better on its own, you will wind up with gangrene everywhere and the need to amputate.
Posted by: Shannon K on February 16, 2005 04:25 PM
“Mr. Gibson, it pains me to say this, but you have no clue what a hornet's nest you stepped into here. You may begin by being quiet and listening to words of wisdom.
Back down? Not for a second, and not an inch.”
“Well, that's just perfect. Trolls telling informed people to take a clue from the clueless[...]BTW, and I do hope this isn't too subtle for you...obviously bankrobbers are guilty. But the armed guards who turn the other way and allow the entry are guilty as well for their complicity. It would be pure folly for the Reps to trust the foxes guarding the hen house to clean up the mess.
hmmm...how many metaphors did I mix there...lost count...”
Just wanted to congratulate you...coming from me (and thus, for what it is worth), you win the “That’s what I think” award! Good and Sound reasoning…
"I will not listen to the KVI 570 afternoon show until Gibson leaves, he's a bombastic twit."
These are my thoughts EXACTLY!
KVI has temporarily lost a listener by choosing this fool.
Welcome back John Carlson!
gsteve Posted by: Steve Hammatt on February 16, 2005 06:05 PM
The lines were very busy - but I finally got through. I was asked my name and told to call back at 5pm.....I called back but couldn't get through until 5:45. A guy answered and asked me what I intended to say to Gibson - I told him - then he said "OK I'm going to put you on"...I waited and waited then the line disconnected!
The Carlson show had ended for the day....
I was going to tell Gibson that his worry that OUR election contest may set some precedence for future elections - (that the Dems may use against us) was absurd! He kept referring to the 2000 Gore/Bush Florida fiasco - yet he never seemed to make the connection that it was the Dems who, during that election, set the precedence for extreme election litigation! And to think that we humble Republicans could possibly teach the masters of creative litigation (Democrats are truly the masters!) anything..is just silly!
Comparing Gores desperate legal challenge in the 2000 Presidential election to our Gubernatorial contest is like comparing apples to oranges! This election contest is about so much more than the Governors race! It is about exposing watered down laws and loopholes, illegal procedures, lax registration verifications, illegal voting, etc...
These problems have been constant in this states elections - especially in King County where they are AGAIN attempting to sweep them under the rug! (See Pattersons version of election reform).... (So there ya go Mr. Gibson!..)
We all know that something hokey has been going on with the Washington State elections for years!
Even without the annual parade of mistakes and firings and resignations and citizen review boards......We all knew in our gut! When King County would take 2 weeks to complete their final tally - well after the other counties..and always seemed to know just how many votes were needed for their darlings to win. The *found* or *lost* ballots, delayed or duplicate mailings, all of those voters who *live* in the county buildings..but have their mail sent to Canada....The Dems must have a book written by now on how to effectively pad the count.
The biggest problem with our elections is the Machine that has been controlling the laws, the tallys, the registrations, the mailings, the control of the ballots, the software, etc....
That machine has been run by the Liberal Democrats for 20 years - with it's best fine tuning over the past 10!
When the largest populated county in the state elections are run by partisan Democrats - there is NO SUCH THING AS A FAIR STATE ELECTION! King County, with it's numbers, knows it has had the power to control the entire state election outcome....King Countys laws are set up so they can hire partisan election officials. They are the only county to not use an election auditor. Ron Sims can hand pick his canvassing board. In King County - the entire election program is rigged from the beginning to the certification.....
That is why this election contest is so popular among the people. It's so much more than Gregoire and Rossi!
people go to court everyday.
Florida 2000 was not a valid case, Gore lost. That case was Dems manipulating the system as usual with a big spoiled brat at the helm.
WA 2004 is a valid case because it is based on principle. if it was Gregoire the attorney (spoiled only child) who had lost by 129 (42 or 261), she would have still won, but in court, just not in Chelan.
people like you Mr Gibson deserve a corrupt government, we here in WA will fight for a just government, something we haven't had for several decades. So John, watch WA become a RED state and we will expect your on-air apology.
Posted by: chardonnay on February 16, 2005 08:22 PM--------
John, I always enjoy your programs and your comments. As a someone from the Seattle burbs, however, I think you've got it wrong about the court case in the Washintgon governor's election.
First, you're wrong when you say Rossi is looking for a judge to declare him the winner. The case is about whether the law was violated in the election, especially in light of thousands of "magical mystery ballots" where the law was clearly not followed. As a voter, I'm not looking for the judge to declare a winner, but simply for a judge to examine whether the election was illegally condcted. We're not talking about whether the judge thinks the result was nice, we're talking about whether he determines that the law was grossly violated.
Second, I think you're wrong when you say that that the Republicans need to keep quiet about this because they're inviting the Democrats to do the same thing. Two aspects to this issue: One, I don't care *who* wins in an election as fishy as this one was. The apparent negligence of election officials needs to be looked at by the legal system. In the future, if the Democrats think they can prove the law was violated, let them do it. Two, the Democrats do not need the Republicans to set "precedent" in this kind of situation. They will do whatever they think will benefit them, regardless of what the Republicans have done or not done.
I think if you knew more about the particulars of this election, you might feel differently. What you are recommending is equivalent to telling someone whose house was burglarized that he shouldn't report it, because the criminals are adept at manipulating the legal system.
This Governor race contest has shown the light on a number of other aspects of fraud, corruption and bad judgment heaped on the people of this state by the Democrats in power, which is all the more reason to keep pushing. Democrats in this state are worse than in most states, I would venture to say. Tim Eyman in his initiatives represents the law of unintended consequences and the best way to take care of business to sweep the socialist, rifraf lame-a** legislators out of Olympia in 2006 and get the ball rolling before then in Nov. 2005 with a new Governor election, where Dino Rossi will start the ball rolling and let Gregoire be a lobbyist or a red diaper doper baby - as her roots indicate...
Posted by: KS on February 16, 2005 10:26 PMLets face it, the facts are quite clear at this point.
1) Rossi ran a good race, Gregoire ran a poor race.
2) It was a close election.
3) After the final tally, Gregoire was the winner.
4) Rossi has the right to a challange, but his case is weak (both on policy, no judge wants to be in the position to overturn an election), and on legal grounds).
5) There were mistakes in the running of the elections. All good people should want these mistakes taken care of without making it harder for legimate voters to vote.
6) There was no fraud.
7) There was no vote stuffing.
8) There is no way to show any of the errors in the system caused votes to go in one direction or the other, everything is just speculation.
9) None of the errors in the system were done to try to help one canidate over another.
10) (Repeat with me, this goes for liberals with Florida problems too) There is no great conspiracy which, if only everyone else that is not as smart as me would open their eyes and believe just as I do, we could defeat.
And I would agree with the posters that says this is nothing like Florida. After all, in Florida, the over all percentage difference was smaller, I believe, and there was a proven error that helped one canidate (the butterfly ballot), and partisans that would rather do what is right for their party over doing their job. Add to that the fact that Gore got the popular vote, and I see your logic clearly. Or is it simply that in Florida, the person you wanted to win was declared the winner while in Washington, the person you wanted to win lost?
And where was all your worries about the problems in the system during the initial count or recount? If you have no idea who one when Gregoire has won, how can you have any idea who won when Rossi was ahead? It cuts both ways, and yet no yelling about all these problems when your person was ahead..., strange.
And stop with the 20 years of machine politics paranoia. First of all, the Republicans had control of King County until about 1990. Second, they have had control of one or both houses of the legislature for most of the last 20 years. Plus the AGs office until 12 years ago. And this in a state with very week parties. I hate to tell you this, but this state has been a progressive to liberal state for most of its 116 years. With the exception of Slade Gorton (who got more conservative as he stayed in power), name one conservative that has run well state wide since, oh, 1950?
And it isn't because their is a powerful party that is stuffing the ballots, it is because that is what the population of this state believes. (Note, even a inititive trying to ban so called "partial birth abortion" failed by around 60% just six or seven years ago).
You have arguements, but so does the otherside. If you can't face that, you are in for a very bumpy ride. If anyone who dares says otherwise is a heretic, and you can only listen to your own self congradulatory, pat your-self on the back for being so clever, mastubatory proclamations, you are in bad shape. First, because you won't be able to critically look at the facts and, second, because you will never be able to convince someone you are right.
Posted by: JDB on February 16, 2005 10:38 PMDid he ever do this? Or was he sincere in his disappointment over the contest?
Either way - he took it way too far...
How could anybody possibly know the answers to 6,7,8,& 9 without an extensive investigation?
This must be why there are provisions for an election contest.
Call the fourth witness! Posted by: Keith on February 16, 2005 11:04 PM
First of all...Go back to your liberal blog. If you can't handle reading what's posted in here by conservative minded people - then don't visit!
Second - don't butcher my post's with your rhetorical nonsense! I hate when people like you post BS as fact! I'm sick of it! WE ARE ALL SICK OF IT! We know what's been revealed with the elections. We know you can't sweep it under the rug...So please don't insult us.
Yes Mr biteme,
There WERE serious problems with our election. Yes! They have been going on and escalating for years! Yes! The liberal Democrat machine is responsible for the dramatic escalation over the past 10 years at least.
Rossi's case is SOLID and getting stronger every day! (As does his support!)
I know you don't want to know this - but there are serious issues that will come out about our elections - especially King Countys role...
So - go back to point-counter-point land....and do not mess with my post's again.
Thank you - and that's more than I give most trolls.
Gibson kept saying that "John Carlson is a litigant in this lawsuit". As far as I know, John is not. Is this just one more point that Gibson was wrong on or have I missed something?
Posted by: gotrhythm on February 16, 2005 11:17 PMFair question. I was running long, so I forgot this part of my rant:
Let's not forget the teams of high price lawyers that the Bush and Kerry campaigns had looking at everything, and all of the observers from both parites that have been watching things from the day of the election onward. It is not like this was all done in locked rooms. Everything was observed from day one. And even John Carlson has to agree with the observers who call in and say everything went swimingly.
To this point, no one has made an actualy claim of fraud. Sure, some people use the word, but they don't mean it. John Carlson says fraud, but name one instance he has talked about where someone intentionaly tried to stuff ballots or change votes. Stefan says "distributed vote fraud" which is a nice made up term, but had no meaning. Fraud requires intent. All Stefan complains about is that the errors occured where they could have hurt Rossi the most. They did, but no one intentionaly did that. Being sloppy doesn't make it fraud, even if that term sells your position better.
If you could show that the error were intentional and done to change the outcome of the election, you might have a case. But to this day, no one has claimed any facts to support 6-9.
I should note, in fairness, while a full and fair recount of Florida would have probably given the race to Gore in 2000, I don't think Fraud cost him the state. There were stupid mistakes and the errors that naturally come when you count several million of anything, but no actual fraud.
And finally, and I think this is what most annoys me about the general level of discourse I hear on these talk radios and sites like this. This is a great State. This is my home, and while I have lived in many other places across this great nation, I can't think of any place I rather be. And it isn't like this state has gotten more liberal with the years, this state has always been progressive, and was more liberal just 25 years ago. The Democrats are not trying to destroy this state, and in fact, lets face it, have done a ton good that makes this state as great as it is. You might disagree, but that doesn't make the other side evil. And stop acting the victim, it doesn't become you, and it simply isn't true.
Lastly, do yourself a favor, go out and read the other side with an open mind, and read your side critically. There is elightenment and snake oil on both sides, but you will never find the truth if you only listen to those you agree with.
Posted by: JDB on February 16, 2005 11:44 PMI have given you an answer, it is not my job to give you an understanding.
If there is a problem with my arguement, please point it out. I know what you believe, but I note that none of your posts cite a single fact in support. If I believe a giant pink bunny rabbit won the election, that doesn't make it true.
And, since you are repeating one of Carlson's old canards, When the first recount occured, was their a great conspiracy in Republican Benton County to be the last to report so they knew exactly how many votes were necessary to swing the count to Rossi? Gregoire was ahead (by, if memory serves me right, a whole seven votes), so obviously the GOP held Benton to make sure they could fraud their way to the top. My facts? Exactly the same of yours.
And, if everyone in King County were so nefarious, surely they could have made sure during the initial election count and made this a whole lot cleaner. Goodness, they really are stupid.
Despite your gracious invitation to try other sites, I think I will drop by here from time to time still. After all, this is one of the few conseravative sites that doesn't have a connection to gay prostitution. More importantly, while there are a few people who actually engage in conversation here, given the normal level of rhetoric here, there is a need for a calm sensible voice. It is sort of fun to be the last rational man. Plus, you just might learn something, and as we learned from Fat Albert, that might just make it all worth it.
I hope you get over your misguided anger. Maybe in the long run we can work on making this state everything it should be.
Posted by: JDB on February 17, 2005 12:05 AMand Dems shouldn't get all excited about this. Gibson is the first Rep I've heard in the whole country who disagrees. Not a very good percentage, if you're on the x-tine side. Not at all.
Posted by: Michele S on February 17, 2005 12:17 AMWhy don't you go to the Ohio democrat blogs and spend some energy berating THEM for crying foul over a 120K+ loss???
Those are people who REALLY need some sense knocked into them....
Posted by: Michele S on February 17, 2005 12:23 AMYou represent a species among the most noxious of trolls. You come here day after day, proffering the party line of seminar headquarters blather in a pseudo calm and rational voice. Informed and impassioned bloggites fall prey to your trap, and address your half-truths and flaws of fact and fancy point-by-point. To which you respond with apparent non-hearing, restocking the mousetrap with the cheese of miss-fact and illogic for the next kind Samaritan who happens by. You retreat each day to the shelter of whatever bridge support that has the pleasure of you company, only to return the next day, refreshed and renewed by campaign headquarters as if having your RAM cleansed by a re-boot. All of this with the blithe unawareness that you’re about to have your lunchbox returned to you empty as on all previous days.
We all enjoy informed and spirited debate. Yours is really neither. It is more an amalgam of misinformation and the dogged adherence to the party line under the guise of calm. It is much more worthwhile to engage a dog that can learn new tricks.
Your name may be Joe or JDB or Carla…it doesn’t matter. It’s all the same drivel. We’ve heard it all before and found it sadly lacking and unsubstantive. Do you really think that someone may actually read your stuff and say, “Jeeze, I wish I would have thought of this years ago…here they’ve been correct all along!” Do you really think that you’ll gain converts? Have you ever actually seen intelligent people lining up for pre-frontal lobotomies at the community health care clinic? Oh! Wait, I get it…I’ll just disconnect my education and years of experience, well…just ‘cause you said so…I mean you are calm.
Jeeze, being obtuse as a positive character trait. What a novel idea!
Many people view “The Stepford Wives” as a cautionary tale about conformity running amok. There is a shocking and ominous alarm about the carefully scripted calm that masks the unpleasant truth. The real shocker is that the “Stepfordized” wives defend the system. The unpleasant truth for you in this allegorical tale is that you are represented not by the husbands or the reader, but by the wives.
Let me sum it up for you. You are the captain of the mousetrap. And, yeah, I do mix metaphors. So sue me. Lucy...well, no, I did'nt forget you. It would probably take several years of committed therapy for you to reach their level of accomplishment.
FTR, I’m not gonna bother writing this out again. I’m going to save it and cut-and-paste as necessary.
Posted by: scott158 on February 17, 2005 02:49 AM2004 dems filed 65 cases, lost all cases.
John Fund agrees with us and he carries more weight than Gibson.
Fund also believes we WILL have a new election.
I have no need for converts. But I do realize that there are non fanatics who might read these pages due to coverage in the MSM and that they might enjoy some rational, fact based arguements.
I will note that like most of the arguements on this site, yours was totally devoid of a single fact, and was just a personal attack against people you don't like. Last I looked, that is the definition of a troll.
I have read a lot of what peopple here believe, or feel in their guts. So far, I have yet to see any facts that support anything other than what we all know, that there were errors and mistakes. If that is all you got, let's drop the name calling and pipe dreams about Rossi being governor and start discussing meaningful elections reform.
You can always tell a weak arguement if it consist totally of name calling or sticking your fingers in your ears and going "blah blah blah, I'm not listening, blah blah blah." Perhaps you should just cut and paste that since it would be a lot shorter and add up to the same thing.
Personally, I take great joy in your paranoia and the way you try to destroy one of your own if they don't prostate themselves in front of every bit of your orthodoxy. But I keep looking forward to being engaged by someone that has some courage to their convications, and maybe, just maybe, a fact or two to back their arguement up. Maybe you are right, and I am just casting pearls before swine, but I don't think so lowly of your fellow posters.
Posted by: JDB on February 17, 2005 09:29 AMI love the way that the issue is always "masked" by throwing out arguements like, "show us the fraud".
I posted one message that intimated that there is a common thread that passes through the election controversies in Washington, Wisconsin, Ohio and Florida. Here is what I see.
First, the democrats have been pumping what they feel is their best shot at regaining power through the political process. It is summarized in the statement, "count every vote". The importance of what this really means remains largely unknown in my opinion.
"Count Every Vote", means making sure that every effort is made through groups that are sympathetic to the democrats to break down the voting process state by state, through legislation, so that the voter rolls can be filled with individuals that normally would not qualify as legitimate voters and make it more difficult to stop illegitimate voters and voter fraud. This was the motivation for the "Motor Voter Act". I will never understand how republicans could have allowed this to pass.
What the democrats learned from Florida was that litigation alone would not allow them to change the results of close elections, especially as they continued to see an erosion of their base (remember they had tried to dis-allow the military absentee ballots in 2000?).
After the "Motor Voter Act" was passed, it didn't take long for groups like "Moveon.org" to see how it could be used to their advantage. So they set to work throughout the U.S. to pump up the voter rolls. In states like Wisconsin, democrats were able to further break down the elections process so that you could then easily imitate a Ukrainian result.
This is why the democrats are silent about Washington and Wisconsin, but casting doubt on Florida and Ohio with accusations of disenfranchisement of voters. The goal is to motivate the state governments into further legislation that would match California, Washington and Wisconsin.
If they can succeed in doing this, they can use both litigation and this new form of voting fraud (now legalized) to change the results in close elections accross the country.
Is this organized? I'm not sure. I do, however, see a disturbing pattern. I also wonder how many other state elections were affected in the manner that Wisconsin and Washington were effected. We may never know if someone doesn't take the initiative to investigate the possibility.
Posted by: jaybo on February 17, 2005 10:01 AMNice try with the talking points from Paul Behrens, et.al but they don't wash.
Try them on horsesass.com and satisfy your constituents with the wishful thinking of your basic pap.
It appears that you have the same problem you accuse conservatives of - you won't listen to opinions that are contrary to yours, regardless of the preponderence of evidence to contradict it. The courts will decide it and we will live with it - that's your side encourages and that's what we'll all get...
Posted by: KS on February 17, 2005 10:10 AM1. Demos first to court, getting a King County Judge to order the county to disclose it's list of provisional voters. This seems to me to violate at least the spirit if not the letter of law concerning privacy in voting. This court ruling resulted in the action listed in (2) below.
2. Ms Gregoire's mantra was "count every vote". But "Ryan Bianchi, communications assistant for the Gregoire campaign, said the canvassers knock on doors and ask if the person is a gregoire voter. 'If they say no, we just tell them to have a nice day,' he said. If they say yes, then they continued with the process" Count every vote? Did she mean count every vote but only if it is for me? Quotes are from the Seattle Times, Nov 14, 2004.
3. Dean Logan admits "I think the machine count is going to be more accurate than the manual count"
4. King County elections workers allowed several hundred provisional ballots to be counted without prior certification, which is illegal. Honest mistakes or not, it is still improper and illegal. If one makes an honest mistake and violates the law, it is still an illegal act.
5. Many instances of additional ballots showing up after the first count and the machine recount which shows very sloppy management of a very sensitive and important process, to say the very least.
6. Many of the ballots that were "enhanced" by elections workers so the machine could read them were done so illegally, in that the original markings of the voter could not be seen.
Posted by: RobertinTacoma on February 17, 2005 11:45 AM
Again, you miss my point. Which, in reality was the point of my last post. So you actually proved my point.
Time and again people on these pages have listed fact, sorted facts from opinion, and carried on a variety of discussions about the legal ramifications.
None of this matters to you folks. You keep chanting these various and assorted mantras..."no facts"..."elections over"..."problems and we'll fix it next time"..."If the shoe was on the other foot"... and on and on.
So, over the last couple of hours, you managed to get some more good folks to list still even more facts.
Yet it won't make the least bit of difference to you. You'll revert back to the same mantras again, intent on never giving an inch.
I called you a troll, you and your ilk, and then accurately described your behavior, which behavior pretty much decscribes the definition of being a troll. This isn't a grad course, requiring a defense before a panel, with footnotes and citations. Why would I need to list facts about your behavior? You can scroll up and read your posts as easily as I can.
I could go back and do an analysis of your posts, point by point. But you are the only one who could possibly get anything out of it...everyone else understands. And you've made it clear that you think what you do is a good idea.
At least Lucy is willing to admit that she has her head in the sand...something I've never quite understood, being decapitated and all.
QED.
Posted by: scott158 on February 17, 2005 12:24 PM"Kerry, who lost the national contest by 3.3 million votes nationwide, and 118,000 within Ohio, denied the bill was an attempt to discredit the 2004 results.
"This has nothing to do with me," said Kerry. "It is not partisan, or shouldn't be."
Clinton echoed those comments, though her senatorial re-election committee, Friends of Hillary, is pushing the bill hard.
Visitors to the group's Web site are greeted first with a full-page form asking people to endorse the Count Every Vote Act.
"My Web site has information about everything I work on. This is one of my biggest priorities and obviously I hope that people who share our goal of making sure every vote counts will support us," said Clinton.
In addition to creating a federal holiday for voting, the bill would:
_Require paper receipts for votes.
_Authorize $500 million to help states make the changes in voting systems and equipment.
_Allow ex-felons to vote. Currently an estimated 4.7 million Americans are barred from voting because of their criminal records.
_Require adoption of the changes in time for the 2006 election.
Boxer said the bill "is meant to ensure the election debacle of 2000, and the serious election irregularities of 2004, never ever happen again."
Both parties have called for changes to ensure a more accurate vote count. Republican efforts have centered on reducing voter fraud, while Democrats have called for making access to the ballot box easier and simpler.
Since I have some time, and someone actually desided to argue instead of name call, I'll respond on an almost dead thread.
1) I said nothing against going to court. In fact, I stated that Rossi had every right to go to court, but that it is a bad case. I will also note that there is not privacy in the fact that you voted or not, this very web site thrives on the fact that voting is a public act. Who you vote for is private, but not wether you voted. Even you admit this is not illegal. And, since the court granted it, by definition, it is legal.
2) Note, not fraud, not illegal, but I will grant you a bit hypocritical. However, the Republicans did the same thing in Rossi leaning counties, and had every opportunity to do the same thing in King County. As far as I know, they did. But, again, this is not fraud, nor is it improper, it is just partisan politics. I didn't expect the Rossi get out the vote drive to bring Gregoire voters to the polls.
3) Note: Dean Logan did not say it would be, just that is what he thought. As Sam Reed stated, in some ways the machine count is more accurate, and in some ways the hand recount is more accurate. An individual recounting is error prone, but with the redundancies of having teams recount, observers checking, and if there are any questions, a board determining the final outcome makes a hand recount accurate. Plus, since Washington law requires that the intent of the voter determine the final nature of the vote, you have to rely on people since machines cannot do this.
Also, and most importantly, that is what the laws of the state of Washington required. If you have problems with that, change the laws. But I will note that they were just updated in 2002, and that Dino Rossi voted for the updates. So crying about the process just because you think it doesn't work for your canidate, when he supported it, rings a little hollow.
4) You sort of have me on this one. Yes, it was improper to send the 300-400 or so provisional ballots through the machines before they were verified. Whether or not it is illegal, I'm not sure. Many laws require intent for them to be illegal, or at least that the act be knowing. If it was purely a mistake, it is improper, but not illegal. From everything I have read and heard, it is probably the later. I do wonder why the Republican observer didn't try to stop it, but it is spilt milk now.
Two things to remember: 1) No one knows how to whom these votes went, and 2) I believe the verification of provisionals runs around 80-90% (most are for people who have recently moved or where the polling station moved and they showed up at the wrong place). Either way, based upon what the court said during the last hearing (we'll see if Judge Bridge clarifies things today), this would not seem to be enough to throw out the eleciton unless you can show that the votes did swing the election, which you can't.
I would agree with one of the reforms I have heard, which is for provisional ballots to have some sort of distinguishing charerteristic, like being a different color, so they could be pulled if such a mistake happened again. That seems like a very rational reform.
5) I agree with you on five. As I've said, I hope after all this is over we can actually constructivly work on those problems. I will note that it will probably cost money. I happen to think that one of the sources of the problems we have seen is that elections offices have been easy to cut over the last 15- 20 years of tax cuts in this state. People scream if you touch their parks, schools or roads. But hold the Auditors office personel stable, and don't upgrade your procedures, even though the population has gotten much bigger, and who complains, at least until the system starts to show the strain.
6) I have heard a lot of variations on how the ballots were enhanced. My understanding is that the ballots were in general enhanced in such a way that the original marks could be uncovered if necessary. At worse, some of the enhancements might have been improper, but I don't think anyone seriously thinks they were illegal.
I will note that this was not done behind locked doors, and I have yet to hear someone say that they saw a vote enhanced in a way that changed the vote. There probably should be a better system, given my understanding of the State Auditor's concerns, but again, none of this shows fraud or a change in the election totals.
Were mistakes made? Again, I have said from day one, yes. But I have paid more than a little attention to this whole debate, and I have yet to hear a single case of actual fraud or ballot tampering. At this point, it is Rossi (and, by extention, his supporters at sites like this) burden to prove that the results were intentionally changed. Saying that there were mistakes should not be enough (otherwise, what is your criteria for a win should there be a revote? If Rossi wins a revote by 300 votes, do we have revote II? No system is perfect, there will always be errors).
If there is more, I would like to hear it. But what I usually hear here are personal attacks and lots of beliefs. Which brings us back to the orgins of this thread. Gibson, a good, true blue conservative, is subject to the wrath of many of you, because he challanges your orthodoxy. This is what happens when you base your arguements on feelings and beliefs and not facts.
First of all it is Robert, not Robin. OK, not illegal but very underhanded I think. (CG: we must count every vote!). Yes the Republicans did the same, but only after the Dems got the court order from the Judge to allow it.
I do believe, without doing a quick double check so I may mistaken, that SoS Reed qualified his statement about machine vs hand and said that there is a greater chance for human error in a hand recount. If we had 100% reliable people doing the recount in a 100% reliable situation, I will grant you that. But keep in mind that observers are looking at ballots upside down and sometimes from a slight distance instead of along side the counters and canvesers.
The fact that no knows who the questionable provisional ballots went to is enough in my opinion by itself to throw out this ellection, being as that number is about twice as much as the margin of victory. As far as fraud goes, notice I do not accuse anyone of that. But there are more than a few cases of illegal voting by felons and there are many questionable addresses given as "home" when they are in fact mailing boxes. Honest mistake? Possibly some but that is what will hopefully come out in this court case.
Please do not group me with people who attack others just because their side is not winning. Keep in mind that Rossi won the first two counts and was, in fact, certified by the SoS as the winner after the first recount. If the shoe was on the other foot, I wouldn't like it but I would have to agree that it was a proper thing to do to make sure the right person won the election.
One more thing and this is personal opinion: I think CG and Democratic Party lost a HUGE chance at gaining voter respect and bringing over middle of the roaders to them by not agreeing that the election seemed to flawed. Can you immagine the political capital they would have gained? And even if CG had called for a revote, chances are that the state would have said no, and then she would have been in office and able to say "I tried to change it but the legal findings said no", etc.
Posted by: RobertinTacoma on February 18, 2005 02:12 PMSorry, I should have gotten your name correct.
Since Judge Bridges has thrown out the re-vote, I think just saying "I don't know" is enough. That is way too low of a standard. I don't think that the court will set the bar that low for the removal of a sitting governor. As I have said in the thread about the latest rulings, I think that the judge in that case will say, fine, but the constitution has been followed, the legislature has confirmed it, the fact that I can't be sure should not override what is, in the end, a political question.
And I agree with you that I would run some of Govenor Gregoire's public relations differntly. Although I doubt I would tell her to step down any more than any Republican was telling Rossi to do the same thing after the first two recounts (after all, if there is more than enough error for you to not know when Gregoire won, there was enough error for you not to know when Rossi won). I think it is good that they have Gregoire moving around, being active. The more she acts as Governor, the less that the Rossi challange maters.
We might not agree on anything, but I appreciate that you are willing to have a conversation about it. Maybe others can learn form what we say.
Posted by: JDB on February 18, 2005 11:24 PMI only have a few minutes here, things to do. One must keep in mind that early in the voting when Rossi won twice, there was very little to investigate about the voting process. What little there was had to do with those issues the Dems raised (that we both agree were disingenuous (sp?)) to say the least and the sudden appearance in several counties of additional ballots. Given time, if there were discrepancies that gave Rossi the edge, those would have surfaced and been discussed. And, I do believe the MSM would have taken a much more active roll in rooting out the troubles. That said, I still think the biggest problems are the roughly 1800 more ballots than voters in King County, the admitted 300 plus improperly cast provisional ballots, and 200 plus more ballots than voters in Snohomish County, who also had a sudden last minute appearance of a batch of previously uncounted votes. I still cannot understand how a system cannot reconcile one for one voiting: 1 signature at the polls matching 1 ballot counted. You talk about the law, but if we are sticking right to the letter, what about the ballots that were "missed" in the first count? Technically those should not have been recounted. A judge decided they could but it went against existing state laws. So, if a judge could do that, what about the current lawsuit? Posted by: RobertinTacoma on February 19, 2005 07:18 AM