February 04, 2005
What really happened in Wenatchee?

I step out from the office for a couple of hours and when I come back I learn that the whole world has changed.

The Seattle Times reports: "Judge refuses to dismiss lawsuit over governor's election". So far, so good, but then this:

The good news for Democrats was Bridges' ruling in Chelan County Superior Court that Republicans must show any illegal votes were cast in favor of Gregoire, and not Republican candidate Dino Rossi. There would have to be enough illegal Gregoire votes to erase her 129-vote victory margin.
With secret ballots, it is impossible to prove how anybody voted. The next best thing to do is put the identified illegal voters under oath, but it's not like they can ask the dead people who they voted for, and the felons' answers can't exactly be trusted. If ballot stuffing explained the thousands of magical mystery ballots, how will those be attributed? And then there's the matter of remedy:
the judge said if Republicans did prove their case, he would not order a new election for governor as they want him to do.
It defies common sense that the judge would order the contest to proceed under an impossible standard and without a viable remedy.

I suspect there's a better explanation than what was reported.

UPDATE: Even the WA State GOP is still contemplating the meaning of all of this

We are unsure of the implications of these rulings taken together. We will consult with our lawyers and keep you updated!

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at February 04, 2005 05:58 PM | Email This
Comments
1. King 5's website has a story that says that Judge Bridge has refused to order a revote. The web is great, in its way, but it can be frustrating to get tidbits of news before the whole story is clear.

Posted by: Darrell on February 4, 2005 06:03 PM
2. I agree that this info does not make a lot of sense, yet.

Posted by: JG on February 4, 2005 06:05 PM
3. As far as the remedy goes, the election would be set aside, the office declared vacant, and it would be filled at the next general election (per Art. III, sec. 10, state Constitution).

I hadn't heard about the standard of proof ruling.

Posted by: ScottM on February 4, 2005 06:05 PM
4. I did not hear the Judge say that they had to prove for whom the votes were cast. He was mostly reading from statute and code; and, as far as I know, did not rule in favor of the Democrats.

Posted by: Gil on February 4, 2005 06:06 PM
5. Stefan - Those were exactly my feelings when I read the same paragraph. There is no way to prove anything when the data is not there. There vote was well within the margin of error and there were sufficient illegal votes above and beyond the margin . Where was this judge coming from. It makes no sense to me. On to the Supreme Court!

Posted by: TimMan on February 4, 2005 06:07 PM
6. I heard Mary Lane on KVI, she seemed happy with the ruling and felt the d's were squirming in their pants. I got out of this that-GOP will have their day in court-they can use all illegal votes they have. They will be putting dean logan, etc. on stand and get to the bottom of this whole fiasco. Judge simply stated that he or any court could order a revote as part of constitution. But, if GOP could prove that the election was poorly run, etc...then either A) Rossi declared winner from machine counts or B) Owens would take over and new election in November 05-with other election scheduled at that time.

Posted by: darcy on February 4, 2005 06:10 PM
7. I agree. Showing how the illegal votes were attributed would be an almost impossible hurdle.

We're supposed to simply take the word of a person who's already been found to have voted illegally? And an illegal Gregoire voter would now have a DOUBLE incentive to lie and simply say he/she voted for Rossi...that would invalidate someone's legal vote Rossi, yet leave Gregoire WITH the illegal vote.

I sure hope you're right and there's "a better explanation".

Posted by: JeanneB on February 4, 2005 06:11 PM
8. I haven't seen that purported ruling of the judge (about the requirement to prove for whom illegal votes were cast) reported anywhere other than in The Seattle Times.

I wonder if the reporter misunderstood -- or did everyone else miss the importance of such a ruling?

I cannot think of anything argued today that would have required the judge to make such a ruling, so I suspect the reporter for the Times got it wrong -- but who knows?

And, if the judge did make such a ruling, what does the judge think is included within the phrase "illegal votes"? If he is including anything other than votes by felons and votes by people who voted more than once, how would anyone know for whom the "mystery ballots" were cast?

Posted by: Micajah on February 4, 2005 06:14 PM
9. I've been listening to the live feed most of the day and listened to all three hours of Carlson's show today. I didn't hear anything about having to prove who the illegal votes were for. I think that information is wrong.

Posted by: Laura on February 4, 2005 06:15 PM
10. The Times got the standard of proof decision exactly wrong. The republicans prevailed on that, according to John Carlson and Mary Lane, as common sense would dictate.

As for the election, the only practcal result of that is that the fraudulent gov would have to move out immediately, and the Lt Gov would be a caretaker until a new election in Nov.

The other practical effect is to make the decision *MUCH* harder to appeal.

Posted by: bruce on February 4, 2005 06:17 PM
11. I suspect that before the case gets any further in Wenatchee we will see the Supreme Court asked to clarify the question of whether it must be known whether votes were cast for candicate or another.

As for the re-vote, the Judge's explaination of his reasoning was very tight with references to the State Constitution which don't leave any room for argument.

That leaves the question of relief pretty much closed. The earliest a new vote can be held is the next even year legislative election. NOVEMBER 2006.

The only other relief option (assuming the Judge is upheld) is to prove Gregior got less votes, have the Gregoir victory annulled, and have Rossi declared the victor.

Rossi can always ask the legislature to call for a new Governor's election in 2006 if he proves Gregoire didn't win and he is installed. But, damn the hill to get there will be very steep, not to mention expensive.

I suspect Rossi will have some deep thinking to do in the next while.

I wish him good luck, but in the meantime I will not be holding my breath that Justice will done any time soon (or at all).

Posted by: DeadWood on February 4, 2005 06:17 PM
12. The judge's ruling doesn't mean there cannot be another election.

It means that the earliest that election could occur is at the general election in November 2005.

Northwest Cable News just had an "expert" (who wasn't a lawyer) explaining the judge's ruling. He got it entirely wrong -- claiming that the judge will have to pick the winner.

The judge could lawfully pick the winner, if he thought the evidence was clear as to who won.

Or the judge could simply set aside the election and declare the certificate of election issued to Gregoire to be void. That would remove Gregoire from office and create a vacancy to be filled at November's general election.

Rossi can win on the merits, and the judge can declare that Rossi is the winner -- but that still doesn't mean there won't be another election, if Rossi meant what he said about not wanting the court to put him in office.

There is nothing that requires Rossi to qualify for office by taking the oath of office.

There is nothing that requires Rossi to stay in office, if he decides to take the oath of office.

Rossi can refuse to take the oath, or he can resign immediately after taking the oath -- either way, a vacancy is created which must be filled at the general election in November 2005.

(Posted at an earlier entry by Micajah at February 4, 2005 05:48 PM)

Posted by: Micajah on February 4, 2005 06:17 PM
13. What I missed is when is rhe next scheduled court date.

Posted by: AL on February 4, 2005 06:18 PM
14. The best I can figure from looking at the law, is that if the R's win the race for Govenor would be declared invalid. Under this scenario it would fall under the authority of article III section 10 of the state consitution and Brad Owen would fill the vacancy.

Quote "Any person succeeding to the office of governor as in this Section provided, shall perform the duties of such office only until the disability be removed, or a governor be elected and qualified; and if a vacancy occur more than thirty days before the next general election occurring within two years after the commencement of the term, a person shall be elected at such election to fill the office of governor for the remainder of the unexpired term."

Which means there would be a new election. The candidates would not be limited to Rossi and Gregoire.

Posted by: Vince Callaway on February 4, 2005 06:20 PM
15. The special election would be nov 2005.

Even if a "revote" was called today it wouldn't be possible before apr.

The ds got maybe 10 mos of Brad Owen (whom I understand they don't like), at the cost of the immediate removal of the pretender.

On the other hand, there is no basis at all for an appeal.

I think this is going OK.

Posted by: bruce on February 4, 2005 06:21 PM
16. Got this off Free Republic:

Courtesy of ALSO LEFT website

alsoalso dot typepad dot com / also_also / 2005 / 02 / newsbreak_chela.html

Stefan: why don't you allow links to Free Republic and other sites?!!? Isn't linking what blogs are all about?!!?


UPDATE 4pm--


* On illegal votes--the Democrats say Rossi must prove the votes were invalid. Bridges ruled it was premature to make that discovery. On using statute 68 .020 from the RCW as the sole basis for what is contestable, Bridges ruled that while they (Rossi) fail on .020, .11 CAN and does apply. On the issue that challenges must be done on or before the day of the election AND attributable to a particular candidate, Bridges acknowledged that the statutes make prevailing in a contest difficult. However, 68 .090 allows Rossi to claim that the errors gound are enough to open the question of whether the election was legitimate. Thus, the motion to dismiss based on the cause of illegal votes is DENIED.

Hmmmmm.........I think maybe the reporter got it wrong, but I admit I am confused.......

Posted by: Scott in Carnation on February 4, 2005 06:24 PM
17. I also hope there is an explanation for how the Judge ruled that really makes sense too.
We all have to remember that Judges are Attorneys AND Politicians rolled together in a robe.So sometimes what they say and do is about as clear as mud to us....but very clear to them.
What I find worrisome, is that Mary Lane has stated he is a "very busy Judge" and would have to "carve out time for this".
What in Wenatchee could be more important than the sanctity of our elections?

Posted by: christmasghost on February 4, 2005 06:24 PM
18. The good news for Democrats was Bridges' ruling in Chelan County Superior Court that Republicans must show any illegal votes were cast in favor of Gregoire, and not Republican candidate Dino Rossi. There would have to be enough illegal Gregoire votes to erase her 129-vote victory margin.

I don't remember hearing the judge say this, and the story doesn't quote him saying that, and no one on KVI seemed to think he said that. As I speculate over at FOTW, it's just wishful thinking by Mr. Postman after a long day's work.

Posted by: Timothy on February 4, 2005 06:29 PM
19. Tim Ford we need your help. Please tell us that you posted the rulings (correctly) on litigarchy.com.

And please give us the layperson's meaning on each.

Thanks in advance.

Cid

Posted by: CidinDupont on February 4, 2005 06:29 PM
20. This is stunning news. Bad news. Does this square with what you know about WA state election laws? The standard the judge seems to be setting is, as you realize, impossible to meet.

Keep the faith.

Posted by: Jeff H on February 4, 2005 06:30 PM
21. Stephan:

This is really confusing. The ruling about assigning votes isn't even mentioned on the GOP site. I'm becoming more suspicious that the Times got it wrong.

Posted by: JeanneB on February 4, 2005 06:30 PM
22. The implication is: "That's the way the cookie crumbles."

Posted by: h on February 4, 2005 06:35 PM
23. The judge made a bunch of oral rulings. You can bet that NO ONE listening to the judge took down every word he said, and did so correctly--except the Court reporter.

The reporter will be transcribing exactly what the judge ruled, and probably be providing it to both counsel, the newsreporters, etc. on Monday. The controversy over what he ruled will continue to simmer until that occurs.

Posted by: Matt on February 4, 2005 06:38 PM
24. I dont thinkt he times got it right, I think they are trying to do some PR for G. The judge was very careful and that would just be a huge blunder.

One interesting argument that the R's could make is to throw out all ballots that contravened the original count and machine re-count.

They might argue that those additional votes were "more" tainted in whole then the original votes and gave the election to Gregoire.

The R's do know how the count changed after

Mystery Ballots
Provisional Ballots
Enhanced Ballots

This would put the D's in a position of having to argue that both pre/post results were equally tainted.

I the R's lost (most likley) then they would simply agree that it is unknowable and the election must be set aside and a re-vote in 2005 occur.

Either way thats a win for the R's, if G were to step down and allow Rossi in that might be a big win for her party in 2008 but no D's think that long term.

Posted by: Todd on February 4, 2005 06:38 PM
25. Hey Flounderman [who thinks he's a shark] why don't you all put on your "orange" and demand the judge revotes. Or better yet, check the felon list
to be sure he's legit. Sorry wingnuts but I told you way back when that a revote just wasn't gonna happen. What you should be asking is why didn't your high price republican lawyers know the law.
Peace

Posted by: Bob on February 4, 2005 06:45 PM
26. Listening to the live feed, it seemed to me that the Judge said that the petitioners had to prove that a number exceeding the 129 vote margin, cast illegally were cast for Gregoire, which gave her the margin...not sure how he worded it but that is the conclusion I came to.

Posted by: Hanna on February 4, 2005 06:49 PM
27. I don't think it was unreasonable for the judge to say he could not order a revote, however he can still rule that the election is void. It is then up to the Legislature to either order a special election or leave the Governor's seat open until the next election. The important thing is that the trial moves forward so illegal and improper voting will surface so we can correct it for following elections. If he does void the election it is still a huge victory for the WA GOP, and even if not we still have the rotten process exposed.

Posted by: L.C. on February 4, 2005 06:51 PM
28. Stefan,

How come I cannot simply copy and paste the URL of the "alsoalso" blog in the comments?

I found it using "Google" after "Scott in Carnation" put an altered version in his comment.

When I pasted it here, I got this "error" message:

Posted by: Micajah on February 4, 2005 06:52 PM
29. Bob, Don't jump too soon here. The judge has said he can't order a revote, he did not say that the election cannot be set aside and a revote occur at the next general election in November. A revote ordered by the court or a revote to take place next November is still a revote.

Stay tuned.

Posted by: Scott in Carnation on February 4, 2005 06:52 PM
30. Bob keep touting your WA state education (ignorance) or was it hill billy Ozark? Read what the judge said it's not over, it's just getting started, so save the gloating you may have to eat it.

Posted by: Adriel on February 4, 2005 06:53 PM
31. Micajah: I don't understand why we aren't allowed to crosslink to Free Republic or alsoalso or horses behind here.

Isn't one of the foundations of blogging cross-linking to other blogs?

Posted by: Scott in Carnation on February 4, 2005 06:55 PM
32. Stefan,

How come I cannot simply copy and paste the URL of the "alsoalso" blog in the comments?

I found it using "Google" after "Scott in Carnation" put an altered version in his comment.

When I pasted it here, I got this "error" message:

Your comment submission failed for the following reasons:

Your comment could not be submitted due to questionable content: [here would be the URL, but I cannot include it]

Please correct the error in the form below, then press Post to post your comment.

What is "questionable" about the content of another blog? (Well, OK, about another blog which isn't written by Headless Lucy or someone similar.)

For others who noticed Scott in Carnation's comment, the blog seems to be done by someone who was listening to the King5 streaming video when it came back online and heard the judge's words.

Posted by: Micajah on February 4, 2005 06:57 PM
33. I'd be more than happy to see the office permanently vacant. An empty chair is better than GreGore.

Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on February 4, 2005 07:00 PM
34. Vince Calloway and bruce: I just spoke with my father, who is an attorney (albeit not election law) and has argued cases before the Supreme Court (one of which was fairly recently.)

He agrees with your assessment. He says, in a nutshell, that Judge Bridges gave the State Supreme Court an easy route to affirm his ruling. Since there is nothing about a revote written in the statutes, the best way for Rossi to become Governor is in a fall election. So it wouldn't be as early as April, but only a few months farther down the road.

This is much better than having a trial in which a judge could declare Rossi the true winner. Afterall, Rossi said he wouldn't take the job if it happened that way.

We shall see what happens...

Posted by: nancy on February 4, 2005 07:01 PM
35. What happens next is very complicated. Here are the possible scenarios I can see:

INITIAL PHASE:

1) The Democrats present evidence which is found by the judge to adequately rebut the Republicans’ claim that the winner of the election is unknowable. Gregoire stays in office, no appeal possible because it is a factual rather than a legal finding. But this is extremely unlikely.

2) Rossi’s claim is accepted but the judge says it’s not enough, because there is no way to prove that the phony votes were in fact for Gregoire, she might have won anyway. Gregoire stays in office, Repubs appeal to the state Supreme Court, saying this is an impossibly high and unprecendented standard of proof to meet, it ought to be enough to show that the true outcome is unknowable. State Supreme Court agrees with the Republicans. Go to Remedy phase.

3) Same as 2) but State Supreme Court denies the appeal. Repubs appeal to U.S. Supreme Court. U.S. Supreme Court denies appeal. Gregoire wins.

4) Same as 3) but U.S. Supreme Court agrees with Repubs. Go to Remedy phase.

5) Rossi’s claim is accepted and the judge rules that the election is invalid. Case goes to State Supreme Court for Remedy phase.

6) Rossi somehow proves that not more than 129 votes were in fact stolen for Gregoire (I don’t see how this is possible unless someone confesses). Judge declares Rossi the winner, no new election.

REMEDY PHASE:

1) WA Supreme Court accepts lower court opinion that new election must wait for next statewide election. Gregoire steps down, Dem Lt. Gov. Owens will be Governor for 1 or 2 years.

2) WA Supreme Court orders new election this Spring.

3) WA Supreme Court overturns election, sends to State Legislature for remedy. State Legislature orders new election.

4) Same as 3) except State Legislature decides they should elect the Gov, they choose Gregoire.

5) Same as 4) except they choose Rossi.

Posted by: Joe Shipman on February 4, 2005 07:04 PM
36. Scott in Carnation

Well, it is their blog. So we can only whine.

Meanwhile, I can feel vindicated that I posted on my blog long ago that the special election ("revote") wasn't a lawful possibility. (Let's not mention the times I was wrong.)

Posted by: Micajah on February 4, 2005 07:10 PM
37. To Bob...
Gloating so soon? You shouldn't. The bad news is the Judge is a Lawyer and a Politician...the good news is...DITTO.

Posted by: christmasghost on February 4, 2005 07:18 PM
38. It seems likely this will head to the US Supreme court.

I look forward to 2006 when this blue state turns red.

Posted by: Andy on February 4, 2005 07:19 PM
39. Sheesh!

No wonder the Judge said he would be available by phone if anyone had questions!

I wish someone had the true transcripts of today's rulings so we could analyze them..(or....so the Times reporter could analyze them and get it right....before launching a story!)

Posted by: Deborah on February 4, 2005 07:22 PM
40. I think it's pretty clear. The judge is saying that if it is shown that the Dems won by virtue of false votes, that the judge will declare Rossi the winner! I suggest that Sharkansky collate all the bogus ballots, show how many net votes for Gregoire they yielded (using the ratios of the total ballots), and this evidence would fulfill the judge's requirement and get the election overturned. I think.

Posted by: Cincinnatus on February 4, 2005 07:29 PM
41. The judge did clarify his ruling just prior to lunch on what standard the illegal votes would have to meet, but stupid me didn't right down which of the two possible standards presented was to be used. Either way this is far from over and I am sure that will be seen soon.

Posted by: Michael on February 4, 2005 07:33 PM
42. The heart of the Dems motion was that the only remedy allowed to the court was to install the true winner - not order a revote. The court agreed. In order to do that you have to know who got the most votes.

Therefore the effect of the ruling is that the Repubs must prove that that at least a net of 130 "illegal votes" were for CG or that the errors on the part of election officials allowed a net of more than 130 illegal votes for CG. You have to show the vote and who it was for.

You are right that this is a very difficult hurdle to get over. I would be surprised if the Repubs can do it because for every vote they can show for CG the Dems will show a vote for DR, tit for tat.

Posted by: dpk on February 4, 2005 07:52 PM
43. Cincinnatus - not even close. SS's statistical specualtion ain't worth a hill of beans as proof in court.

Posted by: dpk on February 4, 2005 07:55 PM
44. dpk -

"The heart of the Dems motion was that the only remedy allowed to the court was to install the true winner -"

Are you for real? I'd love for that to be the case, but in the way you phrase it that means Rossi wins...thanks for making our point.

'Nuf said

Posted by: smegma on February 4, 2005 08:00 PM
45. How is the Lieutenant-Governor elected in Washington? Here in New York, the Governor and LG run together; you vote for both. If it's that way in Washington, I wouldn't understand how you could void the election and only get rid of Gregoire.

Posted by: Ted Schuerzinger on February 4, 2005 08:04 PM
46. Ted: The Gov and LG run in separate races here.

Posted by: ScottM on February 4, 2005 08:06 PM
47. Ted,
Lt. governor and governor run seperatly her in WA

Posted by: ChuckJ on February 4, 2005 08:08 PM
48. Semegma: That is EXACTLY what the attorney for the Democrats argued. Exactly. I listened very closely and carefully to the arguments on this motion. They cited the portion of RCW 29A.68.050 that says:

"After hearing the proofs and allegations of the parties, the court shall pronounce judgment in the premises, either confirming or annulling and setting aside such election, according to the law and right of the case.

If in any such case it shall appear that another person than the one returned has the highest number of legal votes, said court shall declare such person duly elected."

The court agreed that it can not order a revote and that the remedy available to Rossi is to be declared the winner

This is the result the Dems wanted, because it REQUIRES that the Repubs prove that illegal votes actually cast FOR CG so that the court can know who the court SHALL declare as being duly elected. The ruling forces the Repubs to PROVE that Rossi got more votes (not just that the pool of illegal votes is more than the margin of victory).

Posted by: dpk on February 4, 2005 08:16 PM
49. So if the election is set aside, and Brad Owen the Lieutenant Governor becomes the Governor, then doesn't the legislature then appoint a new Lieutenant Governor?

Oh, wait, I know... Let's appoint Gregoire to Lieutenant Governor and then have Governor Owen resign promoting Gregoire to Governor again.

Whoops, that still leave a hole where we need a Lieutenant Governor. Hmmm, I know a guy with some experience as Lieutenant Governor... Brad Owen.

Hey, this place looks familiar, what gives?

Posted by: Snake on February 4, 2005 08:19 PM
50. What a roller coaster!!! I thought It was going to be a home run. but now I feel like I felt after watching Edward Scissor-hands.
Like Wow, the Shark is Right? Can you expect fellons to testify under oath?
let us not become complacent like many have regarding 911!!!

Great Job to all of you who put the news into words.

And what do I do with all this "Re-Vote" stuff. "Re-volt"?

Posted by: Garret Treeadwell on February 4, 2005 08:21 PM
51. For those who are having difficulty cutting and pasting , try the D.A.R.E. method. D.A.R.E. to think for yourself and put it in your own words!

Posted by: headless lucy on February 4, 2005 08:29 PM
52. One thing to keep in mind... if the election is overturned by the court... whatever the outcome... then the Dems lose all that money they put up to get the hand recount. So of course the Dems are eager to win. We know they are really worried because of all their actions (such as the smear against Talk Radio, CG telling her staff to rent rather than buy houses in Olympia). The interesting thing is whether the Dems want all their dirty laundry to come out in court. Watch for them to try and put a gag order on the proceedings.

Posted by: Victor on February 4, 2005 08:35 PM
53. The world did not change. The judge made a ruling based on facts of law.

Now grow up and behave yourselves, crazy people.

Posted by: Al O. Nimuse on February 4, 2005 08:39 PM
54. DPK: There are two separate things involved:

"After hearing the proofs and allegations of the parties, the court shall pronounce judgment in the premises, either confirming or annulling and setting aside such election, according to the law and right of the case."

So if the law and the facts justify it, the court may set aside the election.

"If in any such case it shall appear that another person than the one returned has the highest number of legal votes, said court shall declare such person duly elected."

The question of whether to overturn the election and award the office to the other candidate is, then, a separate question. The words "If in any such case..." clearly imply that the court has the power to set aside the election even in cases where the evidence is insufficient to overturn the result. This is the issue which requires proof of whom the illegal votes were cast for.

Posted by: ScottM on February 4, 2005 08:46 PM
55. Facts are truths, truth is something liberals leave open for discussion, so reality to them is based on their "feelings" of what truth should be
not concrete facts.
MSM proves this over and over...Don't buy into it, I did not hear the Judge mention a thing about determining who recieved the illegal votes. But it does get under the skin.

Posted by: Terry, Clark C on February 4, 2005 09:04 PM
56. dpk: "I would be surprised if the Repubs can do it because for every vote they can show for CG the Dems will show a vote for DR, tit for tat."

Even if that were true, it would be completely self-destructive for the Dems. They would essentially be proving that the system is completely flawed in both directions, yet arguing that Gregoire still won a legitimate election. Short-term gain; long-term loss.

Let's hope it does not devolve to that kind of circus.

Posted by: Larry on February 4, 2005 09:13 PM
57. Don't buy in to the dem's argument that the GOP needs to show DR received more votes than the CG margin of victory. the system is designed to not divulge which way each vote went. when the seattle media states a certain vote went to DR, it's only after asking the voter.....it's via no written/hard copy proof (which many times said hard copies were enhanced).

They're slick and they know this, so hoping the case will get thrown out by lack of evidence.

Posted by: MB on February 4, 2005 09:40 PM
58. Larry--
HMMM??? Good point except for 1 small detail..
The Dems have done absolutely nothing in searching for illegal votes...NOTHING!!
But you are correct, if they do start trying, they show the Election is even more flawed than we already know it is.
Tough one--
Let me sleep on it. I'll give you an answer in the morning!
----Meat Loaf

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on February 4, 2005 09:40 PM
59. First: I am going to enjoy watching the Reps pin up the Dems dirty laundry in court regardless of the outcome. Ultimately I think changes in future election will take place, and cheating Libs could lose their jobs.

Second: I hope to enjoy having the witch get yanked out of office. I can live with Lt. Gov Owen for a while if I have to.

Posted by: L.C. on February 4, 2005 09:49 PM
60. This might be what the judge is saying. This is speculation but its intelligent speculation from an actual lawyer.

A revote is clearly justified when you have more than 129 of the dead voting, or double voting or whatever. But I think the judge doesn't feel he has the right/power/desire to demand a revote no matter what.

What I think he is holding out is the possibility that Rossi actually won. So if Rossi proves 130 manufactured Gregoire votes, then the judge will hold he wins.

Not that I have read the decision, but if the judge was making a modicum of sense that is what he would say.

But its complete BS anyway. For instance, suppose digging through the votes, you manage to get them to confess to manufacturing 329 votes for Gregoire. So that flips to a 200+ margin for Rossi, right? Wrong. Because there still might be 3,500 voterless votes that no one can nail down that still call the election into doubt. So the right answer is still: revote.

Or maybe it can be nailed down. Say you have a district, and I am just making up numbers here, where you had 1500 voters and 2000 votes. And let's say they break down, with 1,100 votes for Gregoire and 900 votes for Rossi. How do you figure out who voted for what? Easy. You round up the 1500 legal voters and ask them to tell you whom they voted for. There is no reason to distrust them (unlike a person who committed voter fraud). So they can tell you, one by one: I voted for X or Y. Then you tally it up. So say we find among the legal voters that Gregoire got 600 votes and Rossi got 900. Well then in that case you know that all 500 illegal votes went to Gregoire. Of course that number is unrealistic because I was keeping the examples simple, but I think you get the principle.

So that is how you find it--you go through the back door. It won't be easy, but what else can we do?

Oh, I know! We could just f---ing revote, which is the right solution. But as a second best solution, this isn't bad.

Anyway, feel free to pass it on to any contacts in the Republican party. I wouldn't assume they thought of this.

By the way, if the judge has ruled out revote and ruled that you have to prove Rossi actually won, I say the Republicans should appeal that all the way to the US Supreme Court, if necessarily, to get it overturned. I don't know Washington election law, but I simply cannot believe that this can be squared with the due process clause.

Posted by: A.W. of Freespeech.com on February 4, 2005 09:56 PM
61. This is a first time post for me as I am new to this but I really enjoy everyone's comments.

As someone who sat in the courtroom all day, maybe I can help with some of the questions.

My view: a very good day for Rossi and the Republicans. The D's lost all their motions except for the one about relief.

Judge Bridges didn't say there wouldn't be another election- just that he didn't have the power to order one. If the election is nullified, he could declare Rossi the winner. Or, the legislature would have to order a new election- I believe he was saying the power to order a new election did not reside with him.

The bottom line is now the bright sunshine (a trial) will shine on what all has been happening and that in my view is a good thing.

Think how bad it would it be if the case would have been dismissed.

Anyway, that's what I think happened today.

Posted by: politicaljunkie on February 4, 2005 09:57 PM
62. "I can live with Lt. Gov Owen for a while if I have to."

What's funny is that in someways it may be easier for the Reps to live with Owen than it will be for the Dems. He's a lot closer to the center than the Dems, thus he may actually be closer to the Reps.

Plus, the Reps would get to watch 'em squirm as CG is defrocked. That alone would be worth the price of admission. Serves 'em right. If you'll pardon the dumb joke.

Posted by: scott158 on February 4, 2005 09:57 PM
63. Thank you PoliticalJunkie!

(And welcome!)

Posted by: Deborah on February 4, 2005 10:09 PM
64. Both the Foulkes opinion and the statutory law contemplate a situation in which a court finds sufficient evidence to justify setting aside the election, but cannot determine with enough certainty who the actual winner was.

In Foulkes the supreme court affirmed the lower court's remedy -- another election.

In RCW 29A.68.050 the law states:

"After hearing the proofs and allegations of the parties, the court shall pronounce judgment in the premises, either confirming or annulling and setting aside such election, according to the law and right of the case.

"If in any such case it shall appear that another person than the one returned has the highest number of legal votes, said court shall declare such person duly elected."

Note especially the "If" at the beginning of the sentence which talks about declaring a winner, and the absence of any "if" in the earlier sentence which talks about deciding whether to confirm or annul the election.

The court can set aside the election and still not be able to declare a winner -- just as the GOP has argued.

Now, how can this simple point be put across to King5 News and NW Cable News, so they will stop putting out such a bassackwards "analysis" of the situation and the law?

Posted by: Micajah on February 4, 2005 10:21 PM
65. The GOP can't prove that Greogire benefitted from the votes the felons and the dead. Look for the GOP to appeal.

The problem is that striking a remedy as the judge did may not make the case "ripe" to appeal until after the trial is completed.

The judge's decision was unexpected by many as usually one weighs the remedies after a trial.

Oh well. If the judge's ruling stands, Rossi's in trouble as he has admitted in his briefs he has no way to show who the alleged illegal voters voted for.

The supremes will decide the matter later for the GOP if asked and earlier if the Ds want to revisit venue and jurisdiction.

Posted by: Erik on February 4, 2005 10:27 PM
66. Excuse my ignorance but, the RCW that specifically addresses illegal votes-does it say anywhere in the law- that one must prove those illegal votes went to the winner??? I thought the law stated that if there were more illegal votes than the margin of victory-then they could be used in the election contest. Where does it say that you must prove that most of those votes went to the winner???

Posted by: darcy on February 4, 2005 10:39 PM
67. 29A.68.090 says that the number of illegal votes has to be greater than the margin of victory. 29A.68.110 says that after the number of illegal votes is subtracted from each candidate, the outcome must be reversed to get the election set aside.

It appears that .090 is the standard to achieve standing before the court, that is, to get the trial. That's why the judge is going ahead with the trial. He's sees more than 129 questionable votes.

However, how he will rule on setting aside the election is partially governed by .110. It remains to be seen how illegal votes can be attributed to one candidate or another when votes are secret. (29A.08.161)

Posted by: north clark county on February 4, 2005 11:09 PM
68. RCW 29A.68.110
Illegal votes -- Number of votes affected -- Enough to change result.

No election may be set aside on account of illegal votes, unless it appears that an amount of illegal votes has been given to the person whose right is being contested, that, if taken from that person, would reduce the number of the person's legal votes below the number of votes given to some other person for the same office, after deducting therefrom the illegal votes that may be shown to have been given to the other person.

Please note that the statute states ‘unless (it appears that an amount of) illegal votes’, and not ‘unless (the) illegal votes’. You do not have to prove who the votes were cast for, just that there is an (appearance) that (an amount) went to the victor sufficient to show that their number of legal votes may be less than the challenger after subtracting illegal votes that may be shown to have been given to the challenger. This statute was written knowing that ballots are secret. Using percentages of votes from precincts to distribute illegal votes should be sufficient to show an (appearance).

Posted by: RG on February 4, 2005 11:30 PM
69. I just don't see what anyone could get worked up over with today's rulings....

Everyone needs to step back and take a breath!
Today was great for the Republicans! The only ruling that was squirrely - was the Judge's interpretation of his authority to use a revote as a remedy if and when the Repub's win the contest! Judge Bridges did not feel it was in his authority to allow the revote as a remedy! So he asked that the revote be stricken. He then went on to discuss what remedies may be available per the law.... This is a good thing! He had to do it. It will be important later on if the Supreme Court has to review it...

He obviously sees the Republicans contest as viable - he denied the Dems request for dismissal! He denied most of the Dems requests....

It seems as though Judge Bridges is proceeding with much caution - as he knows his rulings may be brought up to the Supreme Court level. By doing this - he is helping the Rossi side...

By his actions and rulings - he is solidifying the Repubs case and allowing it to move forward through his court. He is also tidying up any possible loose ends or problems for the Repubs - for when they have to take the case to the SSC....

His rulings today show a strong leaning toward the contest and the Republicans...

Posted by: Deborah on February 4, 2005 11:30 PM
70. "Please note that the statute states ‘unless (it appears that an amount of) illegal votes’, and not ‘unless (the) illegal votes’. You do not have to prove who the votes were cast for, just that there is an (appearance) that (an amount) went to the victor sufficient to show that their number of legal votes may be less than the challenger after subtracting illegal votes that may be shown to have been given to the challenger."

RG is correct!

It IS the *appearance*!

Oh man......I hope the Dems weren't hanging it all on their misinterpretation of that RCW!...(snicker....OK - I hope they ARE! )

Posted by: Deborah on February 4, 2005 11:40 PM
71. Hasn't this always been the kind of case that ends up in the US Supreme Court?

Posted by: TADD on February 4, 2005 11:43 PM
72. IANAL, but it would seem to be that the logical thing (which seems to be consistent with the law) would be to say that annulling the election requires 129 illegal votes. Any remedy beyond that depends upon whether the illegal votes can be shown to be +130 net for Gregoire. If so, the election is annulled and Dino Rossi wins outright. If not, the election is annulled and somebody (probably the legislature) has to take things from there.

One thing I would hope the Republicans would have stressed would be that even whether or the court would not have the authority to order a revote, the legislature has openly solicited the court's opinion of what action would be appropriate. As such, it would seem entirely proper for the court to decide that it felt a revote would be appropriate, but that the power to order one rested with the legislature.

To be sure, under such a circumstance, the legislature could refuse to order a revote even if the court said the evidence clearly showed the election was tainted. I would expect, however, that if they did so, there might be a sudden spike in sales of gooey black petroleum products and fuzzy avian coverings.

Posted by: supercat on February 4, 2005 11:49 PM
73. "Hasn't this always been the kind of case that ends up in the US Supreme Court?"

Not necessarily. The SCOTUS takes the position that the state supreme courts are in the best position to interpret state constitutions and law.

There would have to be a federal issue to gain certification on appeal to the SCOTUS. Bridges denied the R's equal protection claims, which is probably the one federal issue in this case.

Posted by: north clark county on February 5, 2005 12:01 AM
74. Were the rejected military ballots part of the equal protection claims? If not - would they qualify as a federal issue? Or is anyone even pursuing them in this contest?

Posted by: Deborah on February 5, 2005 12:07 AM
75. supercat--
RCW 29A.68.050
After hearing the proofs and allegations of the parties, the court shall pronounce judgment in the premises, either confirming or annulling and setting aside such election, according to the law and right of the case.

If the contest succeeds, then the former attorney general is no longer governor, and the state constitution proscribes what happens in that event. Any actions by the courts and the legislature must be consistent with that.

Article III, section 10
...In case of the ... failure or refusal of the person regularly elected to the office of governor to qualify at the time provided by law, the duties of the office shall devolve upon the person regularly elected to and qualified for the office of lieutenant governor, who shall act as governor until the disability be removed, or a governor be elected; ... if a vacancy occur more than thirty days before the next general election occurring within two years after the commencement of the term, a person shall be elected at such election to fill the office of governor for the remainder of the unexpired term.

If the Rs succeed in their contest, the election is annulled and set aside, Brad Owen becomes acting governor until a new election for governor occurs. I believe the constitutional time for the new election is November 2005, notwithstanding the other provisions cited regarding timing of gubenatorial elections.

Posted by: north clark county on February 5, 2005 12:15 AM
76. Deborah--
The military ballots might be an equal protection argument, but the primary point was the rejection of qualifying affidavits presented to county canvassing boards after the SCOWS second ruling allowing the inclusion of the "found" ballots in King County. The Rs maintain that opened the door for other counties to include "found" ballots, despite the fact that they had already certified their returns to the SoS.

The equal protection argument is that similarly situated ballots had different standards applied to them in different counties. Since King counted theirs, the other counties should too.

Posted by: north clark county on February 5, 2005 12:19 AM
77. Well at least Vance was on the news tonight (Kong6) and they actually let him speak w/o cutting his words off. He ended the spiel by saying that he would much rather be Republican tonight, rather than Democrat after today's rulings.

Btw, before anyone comments about this with any *real* degree of certainty, we had better wait for the rulings to be published.

Finally, a question for any legal eagles out there...Could have the Repubs hired an independent "note taker or stenographer" to sit in the court and record things so they could have the rulings tonight?

Just wondering...

Cid

Posted by: CidinDupont on February 5, 2005 12:29 AM
78. the fact that various precincts used differant methods of counting ballots....interpreting some and tossing others.....eg....sending a very high AFAIK number of ballots in King co. to the canvassing board to be "interpreted" by a Democrat controlled threesome.....isn't this a breach of equal protection of MY vote?

we have also learned that while other counties were actually verifying signatures for ballots, the policy of King co has been to count those ballots anyway....

aren't the ballots in say Stevens Co as important in value as those in King?....why did some voters get special handling for their ballots while others apparently did not?

Posted by: lee on February 5, 2005 12:30 AM
79. lee--
Because the voters in King County deserve special treatment and the eastside scum don't.

Oops, sorry, I usually don't like letting my sarcasm show so readily.

Your points are on topic regarding equal protection. However, there is a high bar to be crossed in sustaining the argument to get a hearing by the SCOTUS. However, it is not impossible to achieve that high bar, as the SC of Florida showed us in 2000. Making things up as you go is the fastest way to get over the bar.

Posted by: north clark county on February 5, 2005 12:46 AM
80. What I've seen throughout all of the past 3 months is that the R's are not so much about Rossi as they are about justice.

Whereas for the Dems it is simply about Queen Gregoire.

I know for me (I voted Rossi) I'd be more than happy to wait patiently for an honest election to install an honest winner.

I suspect that for Gregoire, the end is near. Through all of her poorly worded statements and political manuevering, she's shown that she's not a leader, but just another Democrat expecting the lineage to continue.

When any kind of new election occurs, Gregoire has already said enough to make sure she won't be who the voters select.

Posted by: Jeff B. on February 5, 2005 01:01 AM
81. Posted by north clark county at February 5, 2005 12:19 AM

I don't think that particular equal protection argument was viable. The late ballots counted in King County were only the ones that had been misplaced -- or more accurately, did not have the initial signature verification process completed.

The GOP tried to get various counties, including King, to reconsider about 300 ballots that had been rejected in the signature verification process by submitting late voter affidavits.

There is an argument that the Supreme Court decision in the GOP v. King County lawsuit could extend the deadline for submitting voter affidavits. But that is a matter of interpreting the meaning of "certification date" in the RCW.

However, it is not an equal protection issue. Misplaced ballots that did not go through the signature verification process at all are different from properly processed ballots with apparent signature mismatches. There is no constitutional violation for treating the two groups of ballots differently.

Posted by: Richard Pope on February 5, 2005 01:41 AM
82. Richard,

The question may not be whether equal protection was intentionally denied, but whether our laws allowed equal protection. Our counties did not certify the election at the same time and date. King County allowed new voter affidavits, before their certification but after the certification of other counties. Most of these affidavits were retrieved by the Democratic Party. Voters in other counties were not afforded the same opportunity under the same or similar circumstances. They were not given the same amount of time to correct the same or similar errors.

Posted by: RG on February 5, 2005 02:22 AM
83. Richard Pope,

RE: Equal treatment

What about the 300+ "provisional ballots" improperly included in the tally?

I still haven't heard whether they have the empty envelopes those ballots should have gone in. If they DO, then at least they were able to do the usual verification process on them.

If they DO NOT have all the envelopes, then the county could not have verified their elligibility.

In the second case, the county did not treat all voters equally---some had to complete the verfication process before their ballot was accepted, others didn't. Could this be a case for unequal treatment?

Posted by: JeanneB on February 5, 2005 02:44 AM
84. The supreme court provides a review process of the superior court's findings. In cases where a superior court fails to do its homework correctly the supreme court can return the ruling for a new finding or it can establish its own finding, effectively stepping all over the superior judge. From what I can see the superior court judge in this case did excellent homework up to the point of annulling the election at which he felt any decision he made would stand a good chance of being overturned by the supreme court on a technicality. Therefore, bump it up to the supreme court and let them make either the final determination or grant him effective rights to make a decision for the entire state. Either way the supreme court will have to review. I think he played it safe but established alot of momentum for the R's and the facts in this case.

Posted by: Mark Beyer on February 5, 2005 05:14 AM
85. What I would like to know is:
Has C.G., Berendt, Reed, Logan, Sims, et al, been read their Miranda rights yet?

Posted by: eastside ed on February 5, 2005 07:23 AM
86. Richard--
Although RG has some good points, I basically agree with the position you wrote. I don't think that the high bar for SCOTUS review has been crossed, or even approached. I also believe that the SCOWS got the King County decision wrong, but I understand why they decided the way they did. I'm not saying that the King County "found" ballots should never have counted, just that they shouldn't have been counted in the recount. If needed, the Ds could have brought them forward in an election contest.

It would have been interesting if the hadn't have been counted, and the reports had been borne out that Gregiore had won by 10. The prospect of a Rossi election contest, knowing that some unknown number of net Gregoire votes would then come in, would have made the R strategy quite different. But that is all speculation now.


Mark--
I'm not sure how take what you've written. I agree that Bridges was very thorough in his opinions, making it harder to be reversed by the SCOWS.
Then you say "...at which he felt any decision he made would stand a good chance of being overturned by the supreme court on a technicality. Therefore, bump it up to the supreme court and let them make either the final determination..." He didn't "bump" anything up to the SCOWS (not to say that either side might not appeal some of his rulings). He has not reached the point of decision of "either confirming or annulling and setting aside such election" (RCW 29A.68.050) That would come after the trial, not after the motions hearing. He will set the trial date next week as to when he will hear any evidence the R's have to prove their contest is valid. All he has so far are accusations, the Rs have proven nothing, so there is no basis for ruling on the election contest itself.

Posted by: north clark county on February 5, 2005 07:33 AM
87. RG ~
Spot on! brother from another mother or sister from another mister...whichever.

Posted by: MB on February 5, 2005 10:44 AM
88. Taking this case to the US Supreme Court is a bad idea. It's likely that they would decline to hear the case, because this case involves only the voters of Washington state, in a statewide (not national) contest. Unlike the Bush vs. Gore debacle of 2000, the outcome of this race does not impact the rest of the country in any way, and SCotUS is likely to decide that they don't have jurisdiction. (If Bush vs. Gore had been a state-level race, rather than federal, I believe they would not have interceded, despite the clearly illegal tactics being employed by the Dems and their SCoFla enablers.) This case should go no higher than the Washington State Supreme Court; if the proper remedy is not forthcoming, the voters of the state need to be reminded ad infinitum of which party supports voting rights for the dead, the criminals (felons who have not had their voting rights restored), the non-citizens, the dissociative (people who voted more than once) and the imaginary (ballots without voters). It won't matter to the extreme leftists in Seattle and on university campuses, but it might resonate in the rest of the state. Remember the 1994 elections, in which Washington's congressional delegation went from 8 Dems and 1 Republican to 7 Republicans and 2 Dems. Voter anger can be an awesome thing, if properly channeled.

Posted by: timekeeper on February 5, 2005 11:52 AM
89. timekeeper--
Agreed on all points. I don't think Rossi or the WSRP would dare go federal if they lose. Some enterprising individual might give it a go, a conservative Michael Newdow type.

Posted by: north clark county on February 5, 2005 12:26 PM
90. New Election for Governor Poll

Note: Below you will see the poll. To vote, go to:

http://www.free-web-polls.com/cgi-bin/poll.pl?pollid=17804&subp=0.

In a new election for the Washington State's Governor, vote for one of the following candidates:

Mary Lane (R) (nil)
0 %
Slade Gorton (R) (nil)
0 %
Bill Finkbeiner (R) (nil)
0 %
Chris Vance (R) (nil)
0 %
Dino Rossi (R) (1)
11 %
Ron Sims (D) (nil)
0 %
Chris tine Gregoire (D) (nil)
0 %
Phil Talmadge (D) (2)
22 %
Maria Cantwell (D) (nil)
0 %
None of the Above (6)
66 %
You voted in this poll.
Total Votes: 9


Posted by: martin ringhofer on February 6, 2005 09:39 PM
Post a comment
Name:


Email Address:


URL:


Comments:


Remember info?