January 12, 2005
I'm in the P-I

Robert L. Jamieson, Jr. profiles me in his column today: "'The Shark' uses his blog to take bite out of local politics". It's exceptionally perceptive and accurate. Probably the best article that's ever been written about me.

Even though Robert has been critical of the revote proposal in his recent columns [here and here], he tells my side of the story with fairness and insight. Hat's off to him!

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at January 12, 2005 12:33 AM | Email This
Comments
1. Nice article. Stefan. Congrats.

Jamieson never thought much of the re-vote effort and still doesn't. Thus, his article is quite a compliment to you.

Looking at the traffic report and posting record, I must admit that you have dominated the Washington blogs.

It helps your traffic and posting quite a bit that Dino is losing though. If Dino had won the election by 100,000 votes, your traffic would be a small fraction of what it is now.

Thus, you have "won" the blog war to date by fortuitously having the losing position. Your readers are much more motivated and "outraged" than the opposition.

The very fact that the governor's race is close is helping you as well as people are dying for the latest tidbit of information. With the contest likely to last several months, I see some extended blog activity.

Looks like you are going to have to give the Seattle PI some credit now after all. Rumor has it they are located in (dreaded) King County.

Posted by: Erik on January 12, 2005 01:27 AM
2. Don't let it go to your head, Sharky. Your home-boy, every-man quality is what makes you likeable.

Posted by: Iguana on January 12, 2005 01:43 AM
3. Don't let it go to your head, Sharky. Your home-boy, every-man quality is what makes you likeable.

Hmmm. I don't know about that. Maybe. But praising the PI Stefan? Don't let Carlson know.

Look. This is your day. All through Wednesday, you have a major Seattle newspaper saying something good about you. I guess you and King County get along better than we thought. Plus, you need King County as most of the people in the state with a computer live there.

Posted by: Erik on January 12, 2005 02:06 AM
4. The Republican Party is an odd place for a family law attorney. You get lost?

Posted by: Jim on January 12, 2005 03:45 AM
5. Since the Republicans can't get a refund on the Ball tickets, (and since Precinct 1823 carried the election) give them for distribution in Precinct 1823. (They who live by the sword . . . .)

Posted by: Arky on January 12, 2005 04:39 AM
6. I'm watching all of this unfold from Utah, and you guys are just awesome. Noticed today that more than one official said that election results were "more than 99.9% accurate". Only problem is, 99.9% x 1.5 million = 1498500. So on an election decided to be an even split (1.5 mil for each candidate), it could actually be off by up to 3000 votes. I think that we really need to exploit that kind of language. These guys don't even have enough fingers to do the math at this point, because you would have to be more than 99.995% accurate to guarantee that these current results should stand.

Posted by: Dave Hulme on January 12, 2005 05:28 AM
7. We have needed a good blog log for local issues for a while now. Thanks to "Sound Politics" for meeting and exceeding our expectations. Your blog is one additional step in the destruction of the stranglehold the Democratically controlled media has had on the dissemination of ideas. They will either have to conform to the new media and technology age, or they will parish. Their readership will be only their partisans who believe their white wash of ideas. As we have seen over several very impart events this last year, bloggers are making a difference.

Keep up the good work

Earl

Posted by: Earl Robicheaux on January 12, 2005 05:45 AM
8. Kudos, Stefan! I'm down here in Texas, but watching what goes on up there because my son and family live in one of your red counties, down around Vancouver. In cases like this, you wonder if all states shouldn't adopt an electoral college! Keep up the good work!

Posted by: DagneyT on January 12, 2005 05:47 AM
9. "The Shark" and Jamieson's column are linked from InstaPundit today.

http://instapundit.com/archives/020411.php

Posted by: curt on January 12, 2005 06:08 AM
10. Erik: You're missing the whole point. The blog is getting the hits because something bad has happened AND legitimate information is not getting out in the press. Stefan can thank the PI for his success, not because they highlighted him today, not because Rossi lost, but because they've ignored the serious issues which drove all of us to find alternative sources of information. I would never have gone out and found this blog if the media was covering the story well.

The papers "break" the news stories exactly 36-72 hours after Stefan proves something from the data.

Just more of that thar coinky-dink ah'm shure.

Posted by: SafeRB on January 12, 2005 06:34 AM
11. Stefan,

Great article. I usually avoid the P.I. like the plague, but this was worth reading! The King County debacle is an embarrassment to our state. It's just another reason I thank my parents for moving us to eastern Washington many years ago. I've emailed my representatives, and signed the revote petition. (Yes, Erik, some of us over here do own computers.)

Thanks for all you do. You give us hope.

Posted by: Debbie on January 12, 2005 06:36 AM
12. Stefan - you are GREAT! and if any of you out there don't believe me?

Just ask him!

Posted by: JPO on January 12, 2005 06:51 AM
13. The picture on the front page of the King County Journal shows Chris Vance, surrounded by a sea of faces and re-vote signs. This one wasn't shot from a helicpoter.

Posted by: Boonie on January 12, 2005 06:52 AM
14. Peter...after reading a bunch of your prolific website, I notice a number of mentions about trumpeting the public attention you've gotten (articles, radio show spots, etc.).

A reader can't help wonder if your future is in the entertainment world..following the likes of the right-wing radio/print journalists.

Posted by: Peter on January 12, 2005 07:06 AM
15. When this is mess is resolved, however it ends up, Sound Politics readers should organize and throw Stefan a party.

Wonderful work--thank you, Stefan, for stepping up where old media have fallen down.

Posted by: nancy on January 12, 2005 07:23 AM
16. I just read the column. Excellent! I have to admit that before the election, I hadn't ever been to the SoundPolitics.com website. I now go at least twice a day to see what's new. I believe we need to keep the information flowing, and SoundPolitics is definitely helping. (If this "computer gig" ends up not working out, perhaps you can get a job at the PI as an investigative reporter!)

THANKS!

Posted by: Larry in Renton on January 12, 2005 07:30 AM
17. Way to go Sharky !
I have read about you before but I did not know that you ran SoundPolitics. Now I do, and since you have 19000 visits a day, make that 19,001 now !
I really hope this election story goes all the way to a revote. The mainstream press will have one helluva egg on their face then.
I see how Seattle PI is trying to avoid covering the story, and I see Mr. Jamieson's article as a clear proof as to how they want to cover but not talk about the story.
Keep up the good work and I have added you to the list of my favorites on my browser. You are right along with RCP, polipundit, instapundit, power line and free republic!!

Good luck
V.A.
Clarks summit, PA

Posted by: Nepaman on January 12, 2005 07:42 AM
18. I'm glad to see the congratulations for Stefan on this thread. I hope the snarkiness is tongue in cheek.

Posted by: South County on January 12, 2005 07:49 AM
19. Wall Street Journal features this election. Among chastising Gregoire for being ungracious and winning at all costs, it seriously questions the wisdom of the revote and lawsuits.

Posted by: jim on January 12, 2005 08:23 AM
20.
I've always said that getting the chance to blog with Sharkansky and Rosenberg is like playing on the same hoops team with Michael Jordan and (in Matt's case, what would he appreciate...), it would have to be...

Yao Ming!!!

Posted by: P. Scott on January 12, 2005 08:25 AM
21. Any one read the op-ed in the Wall Street Journal today?

Posted by: jordan on January 12, 2005 08:27 AM
22. Robert L. Jamieson is the official maverick of the P-I, and did a pretty good job on Stefan, though it could have been done considerably better. But his column's appearance probably excuses the P-I from any further interest in analysing the miserable snafu that King County has made of the election, and can be regarded as kind of a smokescreen.

Sound Politics is invaluable to us for three main reasons:

One is that it actually inquires into subjects on which intelligent citizens need information for making decisions, particularly about King County's neglect and abuse of its ballot-tabulating responsibilities.

The next is that Stefan has mighty chops as a researcher and numerical analyst, and the time to employ them and report the results to those concerned citizens.

The third is that the local media, whether or not it has any analytical chops, is massively disinterested in providing detailed facts about this election, and would rather wallow in human interest angles that inform us of nothing useful. More than likely it will follow the lead of NPR and fawn over the Gregoire inauguration while turning its back to the facts and arguments being presented in Chelan.

Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on January 12, 2005 08:31 AM
23. Yes, the WSJ seriously questions the revote and court challenge unless fraud can be proven.

That right wing paper -- dismisses the vast majority of arguments here on the effort.

It also echoes the comments of all the Democrat legislators who commented about the lack of fraud (and were harangued here for such a position).

It says Gregoire did not admit defeat in the first two counts with grace -- but that doesn't excuse Rossi for the same after the third.

This is the Wall Street Journal!!!!!!!!!!!

Not a left-wing-controlled arm of communists like you claim the PI and Times to be....

Posted by: Peter on January 12, 2005 08:32 AM
24. It looks like the P-I didn't "jump the Shark" on this one. Keep up the great work Stephen et al.

Posted by: SheriJo on January 12, 2005 08:48 AM
25. Peter - You are assuming that fraud will not be proven. Once again, we are not talking about a conspiracy, but it is obvious that many of the ballots counted were fraudulent (unverified provisionals, dead people, double counting, more ballots counted than voters). If this isn't fraud, what is?

Posted by: Marc on January 12, 2005 08:54 AM
26. Peter:

"This is the Wall Street Journal!!!!!!!!!!!"

What the WSJ (or any other newspaper for that matter) believes, is irrelevant.

The election is no different than any other civil procedure that is legislated. There are laws that regulate the process. If that process is violated, the laws allow for a court to remedy that violation.

Ignoring the violations disenfranchises 50% of the voters (no matter who ultimately wins).

If the violations were benign or frivilous, I believe public opinion would punish Rossi. I do not believe this is the to be the case, however.

Posted by: Ken Muller on January 12, 2005 08:58 AM
27. Marc...this blog has been about fraud and many other things. The WSJ does a good, right-wing job of debunking all the other things. They also echo the Democrats claim that our democratic process itself is in danger if non-fraud issues are used to try to get a revote (like opinion polls, rallies, etc.).

All along, the Democrats have said "prove fraud" and we'll act. That's what the leglisators have said. That's what the leadership has said.

Your comment assuming fraud is just that ... a comment. Fraud, last I checked, requires willful intent -- not just errors. Nobody has proven such willful errors, yet the Republicans will do their best to prove so in court.

That's their right and the right fight to fight. They do have a big uphill battle, because as I was watching the leglislature debate, I heard Republicans say (paraphrasing) "No one has claimed fraud, this isn't about fraud." Vance echoed this as well. These comments come from your elected Republican leaders.

So...the WSJ agrees that only fraud should overturn this election, your Republican leaders say no one is claiming fraud and the "evidence" you give is hearsay that has no indication of prove of willfulness.

Errors do not equal fraud. Prove fraud and we'll have a revote. Without it, your arguments have been shown to be without merit by a media instrument firmly in the Republican camp.

PS...it didn't even mention that most of the dead votes (8 last I checked) were Rossi votes....

Posted by: Peter on January 12, 2005 09:03 AM
28. I just sent this letter to Jamieson at the P.I., regarding his column on Stefan and this blog.

Mr. Jamieson,

My hat goes off to you. Thank you for your fair coverage of this
subject. I, too, once felt that, of course, I had to be a
Democrat...after all, look at all the mean things that are said about Republicans! But, once I really started paying attention to politics (thanks to the abusive, dishonest and arrogant Clintons!), I realized that I always held Republican values.... And, I'm proud to be one!

I'm a retired businesswoman, who owned businesses in Washington State, for 23 years. Although I'm retired now, I know, too well, how unfriendly this State is to business. I also own real estate, including acreage in the rural zone. I'm disgusted with the way our government treats property owners, too. We need a change in our leadership, particularly in King County!

It's easy for people, especially those who aren't business owners, and land owners, to not pay attention or be concerned about the abuses in those areas. Some feel that we just don't have a voice. Well, now we do, thanks to Stefan Sharkansky, and other contributors to his blog! We can also thank local talk radio hosts, like KVI's Kirby Wilbur and John Carlson, specifically.

If just one felon, or one dead person, voted for Christine Gregoire, or if one person voted twice for her...then, my vote for Dino Rossi was disenfranchised. I'm totally outraged by that alone!

We need big changes in our State, in most every area of government. We need to clean up our elections, starting LAST November!! I believe a re-vote is the only solution, unless the courts realize, after looking into ALL the known fraudulent votes, that Dino Rossi was the real winner, and chose to certify him!

Stefan is doing a great service to Washington State, by simply getting the truth out! A job, hopefully, mass media outlets will do (again?) some day!

Again, thank you for a fair and balanced column. Keep up the good work!

Sincerely,

Posted by: J.C. on January 12, 2005 09:09 AM
29. From Shark's speech yesterday: Because our establishment media has grown partisan and credulous and as lazy and complacent as the local government it’s supposed to be watching. “It’s in the P-I” When was the last time you looked in the P-I expecting to find something you both needed to know and didn’t know already?

Today, thanks to this piece. ;)

Posted by: Bleeding heart conservative on January 12, 2005 09:18 AM
30. Well I guess that says it all..
If The WSJ and Peter both agree that we don't have a case I guess that's the definitive answer.
Someone please make a call to the Courts in Chelan before we waste anymore time or taxpayers money on this folly and let them know the truth !
Tell them to get over it and move on.
It's been fun but I guess it's time to get a subscription to the PI, start hanging out at horsesa** , and start listening to Dave Ross.
Thanks Pete for all your great wisdom !
BTW... Do I need to see about getting deprogrammed after hanging here with the Shark crew?

Posted by: N Seattle Mike on January 12, 2005 09:22 AM
31. Peter:

"the WSJ agrees that only fraud should overturn this election, your Republican leaders say no one is claiming fraud and the "evidence" you give is hearsay that has no indication of prove of willfulness"

I guess I don't get your point.

When there are admittedly large numbers of additional ballots than actual voters, that constitutes fraud. When there are large numbers of unverified provisional ballots put into the regular ballot box, that constitutes fraud. When ballots from dead people are counted, that constitutes fraud.

The courts are the proper avenue to correct the situation, not newspaper editorials or or comments from the local legislators.

Posted by: Ken Muller on January 12, 2005 09:25 AM
32. Peter:

Why do you expect evidence of fraud at this point in the process? They haven't even been in court yet and, correct me if I'm wrong, that's where fraud would be proven, 'willful intent', whatever.

Furthermore, the court decision on which the contest is based clearly states that fraud is not the hurdle that must be met, it is neglect:

"Where appropriate, [the court's powers] include the power to order a new election where no other remedy would adequately correct distortions in election results caused by fraud or neglect." - Foulkes v Hays 1975.

Now, you can argue that neglect should not overturn the election result - that's your opinion. But can you honestly say that there has been no neglect?

Sam Reed warned KCEC several years ago of the problems with provisional ballots, and suggested a simple solution - color code them. KCEC did nothing, and Dean Logan admitted in public that provisional ballots were put directly into the machines because the poll workers were not paying attention. Is this not the definition of neglect - knowing of a problem and ignoring it?

And how about the public statement by Logan that voters could have voted without signing in? Is this not also neglect on the part of poll workers?

If you think fraud must be proven, bully for you. We'll let the courts decide if fraud, and not only neglect is necessary, and whether fraud actually occurred. But your insistence that fraud must be proven at this point is putting the cart before the horse.

Posted by: Larry on January 12, 2005 09:27 AM
33. Peter - Thats all I am saying. You seem unwilling to even allow Rossi his day in court. Either fraud or illegal votes will be proven, or they won't. I am assuming by your tone, you are not expecting fraud to be proven. Last time I checked, a double vote is not an "error" and is willful. A dead person voting is not an "error", somebody intentionally cast the vote. But just as Gregoire had the legal right to request a hand recount, Rossi has a right to contest the election in court. Nobody said we should have a revote based on opinion polls and rallies. In fact, if you have followed this blog I don't even support a revote. I think this will only add to the precedents that Democrats seem to want to establish in elections such a the count, recount, and recount again precedent (FL 2000) and the challenge electors in Congress (OH 2004) even when the margin 118,000 votes. All this will do is allow Democrats, in close elections, to go to the Rossie revote card. I think he should present his case in court, if the votes are proven to be cast illegally, the court should revert to the previous recount which showed him to be the winner.

Posted by: Marc on January 12, 2005 09:28 AM
34. Thanks to all for being respectful as we disagree!

N Seattle: Just prove fraud and it's all worthwhile.

Ken: Errors don't equal fraud. Even your republican leaders (elected officials and Vance) have said this. You maintain errors do equal fraud. That proof, if it exists, will have to come in court.

Larry: Good point. Nothing has to be proven at this point. If the standard in law is fraud or neglect, and the courts agree that is the standard (I don't know enough about the specifc 1975 case you highlight and its relevance to other cases before/since and the law itself), then that proof would be fine.

Marc: I have never wanted to prevent Rossi his day in court. Neither has Gregoire or the Democratic leaders. Gregoire herself said she support the right to contest the election. The Democratic leaders on the floor said if the courts rule, they'll follow. Also, how do you know that dead people votes weren't counted the first two times? Why would the machine count eliminate all these errors or illegal votes? I can't imagine how the machine recount is any more valid given your concerns.

Posted by: Peter on January 12, 2005 09:38 AM
35. Remember, This election was stolen. The PI did nothing to help our cause. I'm sure the paper was a vital partner in this crime.
Now they want to make nice with us...A little like the guy that stole your tv set sending you a note about how neat hour house was when he walked through.
I for one am not going back to business as usual with the PI.

Posted by: Brad on January 12, 2005 09:39 AM
36. As an observer of the decline and fall of mainstream media, as compared and contrasted with the rise of the blogoshere, one question comes to mind: will soundpolitics.com get more hits from the P-I article? Or from Instapundit? Please let us know.

Kevin K

Posted by: Kevin K on January 12, 2005 09:40 AM
37. Peter:

"Ken: Errors don't equal fraud."

?????????????????????

Hello? I haven't seen an explanation for the "errors" yet. Perhaps you are aware of some information that hasn't been dessimanted yet?

When the KC election board can explain how they got 1800 more ballots than voters, I'll accept your "errors" comment. Until they do, its prima facia evidence of fraud.

Posted by: Ken Muller on January 12, 2005 09:48 AM
38. Kudos to Shark for the positive comments in the the PI column. The latest response from Dean Logan and his team is absolutely incredulous. Logan is either incompetent or corrupt or a combination of both. I hope there will be a thorough investigation of his department followed by a THOROUGH HOUSECLEANING.

Posted by: maggie on January 12, 2005 10:01 AM
39. Go get 'em, Shark! Loved clicking your sitemeter to see how your hits have kept on comin'. What you do is critical to keeping democracy vital. And as for fraud, what about the military ballots, huh? Waiting 'til the absolutely last possible minute before the Feds step in? I would consider THAT "willful"! I already sent a contribution to ReVotewa. Hope it helps!

Posted by: mouse on January 12, 2005 10:03 AM
40. Spare us the snarky comments, Erik, which only make you look small. If World War II hadn't happened we'd never have heard of General Eisenhower, either. So what's your point? I'll answer my own question: You don't have one.

Posted by: j.a. on January 12, 2005 10:11 AM
41. Has any one heard if there was an additional bulk mail permit for the military, or do we believe they were part of the large number of absentee ballots sent out on Oct. 13th in King County. Haven't heard of another permit..

Posted by: Mary on January 12, 2005 10:24 AM
42. I am not buying this.

I am a published writer with twenty year's experience. Writer intent and semantics are my forte. And the intent of this piece was not what it appears to be.

Jamieson stated,

"[Stefan] believes democracy is not based on elections so much as the will of the people. Elections are just a tool to measure that will. But if the tool is faulty, he says, it must be fixed or replaced."

The crafting of this single statement exposes Jamieson's and the PI's intent: to present the idea of constitutional government by and for the people as quaint and irrelevent, and to marginalize the ideals that we are attempting to uphold.

The way Jamieson described Stefan (and those who agree with him) uses the same condescending tone that one would use when discussing the village idiot. Just smile and nod, and pretend to be interested.

This attitude reflects that of the PI, which has openly embraced Gregoire as governor. The trademark tactic of the maistream press is to present those who embrace the ideals of liberty, of justice, and of government for and by the people as bitter and irrational outsiders.

The PI is not doing us any favors. They are simply tossing a bone to what they perceive as a pack of angry dogs with the hope that by acknowledging us we will somehow settle down and melt away.

Not me.

Stefan, I applaud you for the work you have done. I stand with you. God bless you.

Posted by: AjalonVox on January 12, 2005 10:33 AM
43. Peter - I make an error run a red light and kill your wife. Didn't mean to do it. No willful intent thus I shouldn't suffer (nor should my insurance company suffer) any damages, right?

Posted by: Jericho on January 12, 2005 10:45 AM
44. Peter - And fraud did occur, maybe not centralized fraud, but centralized incompetence allowed distributed fraud on a large scale.

Posted by: Jericho on January 12, 2005 10:50 AM
45. And Peter - There is definately now an ongoing cover-up of that incompetence. Case in point the date change on the web by KC that occured this past Sunday night in regard to the mailing of absentee ballots.

This was obviously done to avoid a federal probe which should now occur against both KC elections and the WA Sec State as Sec State said all absentees were out or would go out the next day when the feds threatened to sue in October. The ballots did not go out until the 13th, over a week later if postal records are accurate.

Posted by: Peter on January 12, 2005 10:53 AM
46. Sorry about the monicur Peter. That last post was from me Jericho.

Posted by: Jericho on January 12, 2005 11:02 AM
47. It is probably not legal to sign off on ballot & voter counts that do not reconcile to each other. The numbers are supposed to reconcile, and it's meaningless to "certify" the numbers without meeting that basic condition.

Fire them all.

Posted by: Bostonian on January 12, 2005 11:07 AM
48. Peder - you are from Sweden, right? :)

I think Dino and Chris are being generous ... yet again ... by not directly calling it fraud. They have worded it carefully and will let the court decide based on the evidence. Wise political position.

The courts might rule that human errors and mistakes in KC weren't overt enough to legally change the outcome based on WA state election laws.

We all know KC changed their rules and procedures at will and still feel that it was within their legal perogative. If the courts rule is was, then we are not only stuck with Gregoire, but the credibility of our election laws will be lost admist calls for reform. It may get messier than either candidate ever wanted.

But, I think Dino is trying to be honest but not so bloggishly honest as we. I think Dino hopes to preserve some shred of confidence in both our electoral system and related judicial rulings regardless of outcome. He's doing what we as citizens expect to maintain our checks and balances.

The bloggers will blog, and the politicians will do what they do. Remember, sometimes it's not what you say, but what you don't say.

Posted by: Mike J on January 12, 2005 11:15 AM
49. Quite a good article.

This Robert L. Jamieson, Jr. might indeed have a career ahead of him.

Posted by: Bostonian on January 12, 2005 11:29 AM
50. Rossi lost. Get over it.

Posted by: Snark on January 12, 2005 11:47 AM
51. Pardon the interruption, but wouldn't fraud depend on intent?

The venacular of legaleze is a strange one...words mean things we never thought of in that realm...

The main crux of this issue, in my understanding, is would the errors, irregularities, fraud in blogeze result in changing the outcome...

Since no one here, including *The Shark* himself, will answer the questions of who did these supposed erroneous votes go to, there can only be assumptions...

And it appears all of you are assuming all the questionable ballots were cast for CG...is that the case?

Without knowing which of the *irregularities* went to which candidate, how can anyone assume the winner of the hand recount would be different?


Without patterns of consistent malicious intent, a ruling for a revote (or more aptly coined reelection) will do nothing but disenfranchise the half of the electorate that voted for CG...how is that fair and just?

So maybe *The Shark* could show us some patterns...something more affirmative than tossing out vague atatistical anomolies...

Get to the truth...that's justice and how our government should work...

Then fix the system so this never happens again...


Posted by: G Davis on January 12, 2005 11:54 AM
52. Snark wrote "Rossi lost. Get over it." These kind of comments don't take any thought or time to make. It reminds me of cheerleaders chanting Big "G" little "o" "Go, Go". No substance. I bet the most annoying thing to people who make those kind of comments is that it really doesn't bother us. As Christine Gregoire so profoundly said on election night, "victory comes to those who wait" My thought at the time, was that waiting doesn't determine the outcome. But, now my thought is that waiting (not helplessly, but rather proactively) may yield great rewards.

Posted by: Orange Robyn on January 12, 2005 11:56 AM
53. As you shoud be; congratulations on your growing celebrity. Too bad the local papers don't offer this kind of reporting. Comparatively, those guys look like dinosaurs.

Posted by: Michele on January 12, 2005 12:22 PM
54. Don't forget that we've already seen fraud in the changing of the date that the military ballots were sent out (which was ludicrously blamed on a computer programming error).

Posted by: Ted Schuerzinger on January 12, 2005 01:56 PM
55. Pardon the interruption, but wouldn't fraud depend on intent?

Somewhat. If an election official allows someone to vote without signing in, knowing that the person is not allowed to vote, has already done so, or will do so again, and knowing that the person will vote for Gregoire, the election official is clearly a party to a fraudulent vote cast for Gregoire.

If an election official allows someone to vote without signing in, in wanton disregard for whether that person is allowed to do so, has already done so, or might do so again, that might not rise to the same level of fraud but would nonetheless clearly constitute malfeasance.

Since no one here, including *The Shark* himself, will answer the questions of who did these supposed erroneous votes go to, there can only be assumptions... And it appears all of you are assuming all the questionable ballots were cast for CG...is that the case?

It would seem likely that in a precinct run by Democrat election officials, the ratio of illegal ballots cast for Gregoire (versus Rossi) would be at least as high as the ratio of legitimate ballots in the same precinct.

Without knowing which of the *irregularities* went to which candidate, how can anyone assume the winner of the hand recount would be different?

The hand count introduces its own set of problems, since it is known that Democrats illegally altered some of the ballots that they claim had "unclear" Gregoire votes so as to be solidly marked for Gregoire; although state law requires that the original markings be preserved, the Democrats destroyed them. It is thus unknowable whether the Democrats created any Gregoire votes out of thin air, because they have illegally destroyed the evidence that would show their actions to be legitimate.

Without patterns of consistent malicious intent, a ruling for a revote (or more aptly coined reelection) will do nothing but disenfranchise the half of the electorate that voted for CG...how is that fair and just?

How will it disenfranchise them? If CG has the true support of half the people, she should win the revote. If she doesn't really have the support of half the people, the revote would be the only way to prevent the disenfranchisement of the more-than-half-the-people who voted for Rossi.

So maybe *The Shark* could show us some patterns...something more affirmative than tossing out vague atatistical anomolies...

The Democrats have committed malfeasance which is indistinguishable from fraud. In many cases, it may be impossible to prove that it is deliberate fraud rather than wanton disregard for legal procedures, but such difficulty is a consequence of Democrats' unlawful mishandling of evidence.

To borrow a hypothetical analogy from another post, suppose that King County were to certify that their handcount yielded 50,294,197 votes for Gregoire and 23 votes for Rossi; suppose they were to further announce that they shredded the ballots. Should such a count be accepted?

The situation at hand is much less blatant than that, but the fundamentals are the same: the Democrats have released anomolous numbers, and have destroyed evidence which, were it examined, would determine whether those anomolies were the result of fraud, mistakes, or chance.

Even if Gregoire did get more legitimate votes than Rossi, it would not be Rossi that wronged her, but the election officials who destroyed the evidence that she won legitimately. If the winning party in an election acts with sufficient incompetance and malfeasance to render an election result untrustworthy, there is nothing unjust about subjecting them to a revote. If the party wanted to win without a revote, it should have done so cleanly (assuming it could).

Posted by: supercat on January 12, 2005 03:39 PM
56. Many have wondered why Rossi and other Rs don't call the 'irregularities' in the vote count by their real name, fraud, which to the general public just means cheatiing.

In the field of law, I think that to prove fraud a person and specific act have to be named. If in public Rs said 'fraud,' they could get sued big time by every D who could plausibly assert those darned Rs had defamed them. THAT is why we don't see Rs saying Fraud publicly. Anyway, since WA only requires mistakes, etc. that is all they have to allege and show.

Re: WSJ - I read all the responses to that article. Everyone except one person who responded disagreed vehemently with the notion that it's okay to have fraudulent (see common usage, not legal usage, definition above) elections, but don't have a revote. I had hoped they would say the judges should just roll back to the second count, but they didn't.

What's going on? Personally, I think the national Rs don't want this revote to happen. To them, Seattle and the State of Washington are just flyover country. I loved that they trotted out the old tired "graceful loser" canard. One of the A respondeses to the column said Rossi wouldn't be seen as a 'graceful loser,' but just as a 'loser.'

I couldn't agree more!

Posted by: Mac on January 12, 2005 04:06 PM
57. I had hoped they would say the judges should just roll back to the second count, but they didn't.

Given that King County election workers unlawfully destroyed ballot markings during the hand-recount, it would not have been unreasonable for Dino Rossi to have insisted that the third count should be simply thrown out. Unfortunately, had he done so, it would be impossible for him to avoid being regarded by many as a "selected not elected" governor no matter how thoroughly he proved his case.

Dino Rossi is hoping to capitalize on a few things with a revote:

-1- If he wins with a significant margin of victory, it will be impossible for his win to be regarded as the will of the courts rather than the people.

-2- In calling for a re-vote, he can appeal to people's sense of fairness as well as to people's desire to have a governor who is widely considered to have been elected fairly. No course of action other than a revote could produce such an outcome.

-3- People tend to look negatively at those who accuse others of cheating. In seeking a revote, Rossi can say that there are severe enough irregularities that it is likely he should have won, without having to come out and occuse his opponents of fraud.

-4- People tend to look negatively at those who turn down a fair and legitimate challenge. If Gregoire legitimately won the first election, she should be better off politically beating Rossi in a rematch than refusing one. That she refuses one will be seen as an admission she thinks she'd lose.

Posted by: supercat on January 12, 2005 04:29 PM
58. supercat...any altering that was done to ballots was done by a trio...one Dem, one Repub, and on unaffiliated...

The Dems on their own didn't destroy any ballots unless you know of some other than those talked about in the MSM...

Posted by: G Davis on January 12, 2005 08:44 PM
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