That really isn't the point. I think most people care more about making sure that only legitimate votes are counted than the political afffiliation of our cemetaries. If you remove the dead, convicted and insane from the roster, let the election fall were it may, at least it will be fair.
Posted by: Jon on January 9, 2005 10:55 AM
Now the Seattle press is helping CG try to get us all to know the "real" CG (combine with the planned heal-tour). Appears to be a strategy in prep for a re-vote. Thinking maybe they can all work together and change minds. Way to use the tax dollars CG!
Posted by: MB on January 9, 2005 11:03 AMafter all ANYONE that wants their votes to count should be there.i would like to see fred barnes[beltway boys] proven wrong when he stated about a new election here... last night... " not going to happen"....WRONG.
but we have to have a really good showing!!!
so if you're dead...and you voted...don't make me come after you with a shovel!!LOL.
and if you're alive... YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE........it really is in the people's hands now.
Posted by: christmasghost on January 9, 2005 11:11 AM
The point is that the situation here mirrors the situation in Florida. It was a mess...and well within the margin error. However the same people saying "do over" here were hard and fast on doing no such thing in Florida as long as bush was declared the victor.
The difference? The republican was ahead when the Us Supreme Court ordered counts to stop. Here, of course, after all the legal recounts are done, the republican is behind. SO they have to resort to a re-do to "keep counting". (Incidentally, this is funny too since the republicans kept saying Gregoire would keep counting until she won...now rossi's folks are doing the same thing!)
So...all these arguments about errors in elections are true -- and admittedly so -- and of course the right way is to fix the future, not change the law now after the fact.
But that wouldn't mean rossi would be governor...so of course it won't be acceptable.
Also, note that if Gregoire were behind 100+ votes and did a similar lawsuit, the Republicans would undoubtedly repeat the Florida experience...they would be up in arms about refusing to accept a loss. That's also a really funny part.
It's ok...inconsistency is true in both parties....but it's fun to point out!
Posted by: jim on January 9, 2005 11:16 AMI would even argue that if the problem votes benefited both candidates proportionately, there are no grounds for a revote.
I think we need a revote because the problems seem to have happened mainly in King County, which means that they almost certainly gave Gregoire a vastly disproportionate gain in the statewide vote.
Further, King County, run by Democrats, knew about at least some of these problems and made a conscious decision not to correct them, and elections workers deliberately violated the law (or were delibrately misled by officials) by enhancing ballots in such a way as to cover up actual voter intent.
MB: That's why I asked the question the way I did; so that he'd have to prove his claim, not that Rossi got a single vote from the dead.
Of course, that's precisely what he did, because he doesn't understand the difference between proving his claim and proving a completely different claim.
(I have previously given my reason for skepticism about Mr. Holmgren's claim. Unfortunately, I can't link because the system won't let me post a link to Free Republic.)
Mark: C'mon, dude, that picture is high-larious.
Posted by: ScottM on January 9, 2005 11:20 AMThe question was whether you had evidence that the dead votes went disproportionately to Rossi. You answered with a reference to a newspaper article about one vote. Unless that was the only dead voter, you have no evidence.
The real similarity between Florida and Washington is that the Democratic party attempted to steal both elections. The difference is that they did not succeed in Florida, as they have to this point in Washington - and thank God for that.
Posted by: Larry on January 9, 2005 11:22 AMAnd what about the provisional ballots which were unlawfully passed through the poll site machines, even though King County had ben warned that this could easily happen? We don't even know what the number was, so we can't even remove a certain number of ballots from the count at random.
Forget about changing the law (though you had no problem doing so when it benefited Gregoire). How wold you remedy the violations of current law which we know took place?
King County's illegal acts disfranchised me. My vote counted for less because King County violated the law. How do you propose to "make me whole," to put it in legal terms?
Posted by: ScottM on January 9, 2005 11:27 AMThose guys look like they fit right into the Seattle grunge scene! Kurt Cobain, maybe? :-)
Keep up the good work. We're rooting for you on the East Coast!
Ron
Posted by: Ron on January 9, 2005 11:28 AMJIIIIMMMM! IIIIMMMM! iiimmm! iimm...
Seriously, though, Jim, I'd like your answer to m question. The usual remedy for illegal votes is to remove those votes from the totals. That is impossible in this case, given the nature of King County's lawbreaking. We don't even know how many of the unlawfully-counted provsional ballots were actually illegal votes, or how many of the unlawfully-enhanced ballots might have actually have had the voter's intent altered. So how many votes do we take away, and from which candidate?
Republicans have proposed a remedy for the harm done by King County's illegal actions: a revote.
If you don't like that remedy, what's yours? Or if you think that no remedy is necessary, say that. And say why.
Or quit whining.
Posted by: ScottM on January 9, 2005 12:10 PMGenerally, I agree with you, just a few points. In my opinion, the overall issue is the fact that the election is within the margin of error, if everything was 100% above-board. However, based on the information that has been uncovered regarding the malfeasance in KC, one has to assume the margin is much higher. Also, given the policital tendancy of KC (commie-leftist) you can be assured that every attempt was made to place CG in office, ratchet the margin a bit further. Therefore, the only way to ensure a reliable outcome is to remove the illegitimate votes from the system or re-vote and hope the outcome is greater than the margin of error. The reality is that there needs to be some combination of both. We will not be able to get 100% correct rolls in the near future, so there must be a trigger that results in re-vote. Knowing that we will never know who voted for who or how many times, re-vote is the only sure fire way to ensure fairness in this election. The math alone is sufficient to call for re-vote w/o considering the policitcs, which are icing on the cake.
Posted by: Jon on January 9, 2005 12:14 PM
KC even publicized hints in May 2004 on how to take advantage of their porous system....keep it loosey goosey and let the moveon.org folks take care of the dirty work.
Hoping the FBI is investigating that scrungy org which would include gathering evidence from a homeless sting operation.
Posted by: MB on January 9, 2005 12:20 PMI want to know more about the woman in your district that voted 8X. And How you got info that Moveon.org got her ballots. I think it needs to be submitted to the FBI and to stefan.
I don't doubt you that someone voted 8X. In fact I have already seen cases were people tried to submit multiple bllots. But whats the link to Moveon? Posted by: Joe on January 9, 2005 12:47 PM
Let Florida go. It was heavily Democrat controlled areas that "just happened" to be as incompitent as King County, and "just happened" to want to count/recount/recount/change rules and divine the will of voters apparently incapable of following instructions.
Why is it that Thurson County can balance their voter lists to votes, but King County can't?
You can't help it if government benefit dependent DemonRats are too stupid to know how to "punch" out chads (or fill in ovals). After all, they are the product of the public schools, eh? You are really advocating "outcome based" voting.
Sore LooserMan/Gore didn't want a statewide recount. He wanted to cherry pick areas that were controlled by rabid Demonrats so the situation could be "tweaked" to his advantage (hence, holding ballots up to the light).
The "Conservative" Supreme court put a stop to the mess because of Equal Protection concerns (had Gore wanted a statewide recanvasing, under the same rules). After all, why should a vote be given more careful consideration in places like liberal Broward County, rather than the conservative Panhandle?
You convienently forget the three media outlets that went in after the election and did the 'gore style' recount... And guess what??? Gore lost (believe me, if Dan 'forgery' Rather could have 'exposed' that Gore truly won, don't you think he'd have been drooling and wetting himself on the way to the cameras?
The Florida (and now Ohio) myths are simply to keep the rabid, tree hugging, dope smoking hippie base sending their checks to the DNC (and watching Michael Moore-on distortions).
If Republicans tweaked the voting system to the extent Demonrats have, we'd require a DNA sample (to identify and prevent multiple votes) & drug test before considering a vote valid. Then there wouldn't be another Demonrat elected for the next 100 years.
Voter Fraud is no myth. It happened. In florida, there are several counties where 77% of the voters are registered democrats. Yet on election day, the republicans in those counties got from 120% to 212% of the vote in each county. Theres something wrong with that.
In ohio, the twisted christian reconstructionist government of governor taft ordered that in democratic counties, that the number of voting machines be reduced, while in christian reconstructionist counties, the numbers were increased. If this is not voter fraud, then I do not know what is.
Face it (Good?) jim, the republicans lost the election. The Democrats won
Get over it
Move on
Live with it.
You all lost.
Posted by: Magnu Serpentine on January 9, 2005 03:18 PMThe voting process went much further here than in Florida when the judges stopped counting...ignored even more obvious voting irregularities. Just once, I'd like to hear a Rossi supporter say that was the wrong thing to do.
Of course they don't...they wanted Bush and supported every effort to get him in. Too bad it's the exact opposite argument here...all because Rossi is behind.
ScottM, No re-vote is necessary because the law was followed and Gregoire is the winner. You don't get to revote because you don't like the result. Claims of fraud have been completely debunked (so much so that the Republican party itself didn't include fraud in their suit -- even though the papers will full of Vance spouting "cheaters!" throughout the process). You don't get to change the law after the fact....the law was followed, the votes counted...the results certified. Find fraud? Prove it! Until then, take it like a man. Less votes, you lose. More votes you win. Pretty simple stuff actually.
Larry: Democrats tried to steal Florida? They had more votes but the courts weren't allowed to count them. If you truly believe in the argument that all votes should be counted, then you can't support Bush taking Florida the way it was done. (NOTE: don't forget the republicans started out by saying "hold voters to responsibility for voting correctly" but now are talking about "disenfranchised voters"). Can't have it both ways...but wait, you can, since your guy was ahead but lost when all the votes were counted and certified.
I ask what the Republicans would say if Gregoire was behind by 100+ votes and filed the exact same suit Rossi did. They'd be saying what the Democrats are saying! Proof? The Rs are saying what the Ds said when Gregoire was behind! (Remember, "Concede Chris!" when Rossi was behind only 42? Now that Gregoire has a 3x bigger lead, the last thing Rossi will do is concede)!
GoodJim: you are correct, Gore blew it by cherry picking. But did Gregoire? Of course Vance was saying she would...but guess what, it was the whole state!
But Rossi has done a great job wrestling the "Sore Loser" title from Florida! Congrats Dino...you have set new standards in losing. What a great example for our kids....don't worry, be like Dino...don't like losing? Sue! Fight! Forget democracy....use the courts....find a good republican activist court and start there!
At least Sam Reed has shown to be a reaonable republican...aren't there more of them out there?
Good Jim: Can you HONESTLY say that if Gregoire was behind and was doing the exact same suit with the exact same allegations, that you'd support the redo? Given your comments above, I find it extremely unlikely that you would....because, ultimately, it's not the data, the facts...it's getting your guy in (and your prejudices are well lined out in your email..down to the "demonrats" nastiness. Hard to see how that makes you "good" in a fair sense...
But when the republicans get power...look what happens! Relax those ethics rules! Get indicted? If your name is Delay, no problem..you keep your power! Your a republican, after all! Sexual affair -- LET'S IMPEACH! Redirect money illegally to alter government illegally (hmmm..more hard to believe it's not a third world country)...no harm, no foul (as long as you are republican).
Posted by: jim on January 9, 2005 03:40 PMYou and I both lost.
We ALL lost.
But what did we lose?
Confidence in Washington State Elections courtesy of King County and some partisian election officials.
The only way for any legitmacy for either candidate is to present the facts and let the courts make a ruling. We don't turn to conservative or liberal newspapers or partisian blogs for decisions. We turn to the courts. That is how we do it in America and that's how it must be done in this case.
If the court favors Gregoire, so be it. Rossi will have done what was needed to provide the court directed legitmacy that we as citizens constantly require. Getting a court ruling should be the first stop in Gregoire's healing tour. Without it, it's just partisian rhetoric.
Posted by: Mike J on January 9, 2005 04:02 PMGet it, Jimbo? UNLAWFULLY.
What the hell is wrong with you?
Posted by: ScottM on January 9, 2005 04:39 PMIf the courts rule in your favor...great, you've proved it.
You use statistics and data to bolster your case; the opposition does the same.
Posted by: jim on January 9, 2005 05:12 PM"Another problem in King County: Nearly 350 provisional ballots were fed directly into vote-counting machines before election staffers could verify whether they were valid, Logan said."
You're either a liar, Jimmy, or you just don't know what you're talking about. Either way, to hell with you.
Posted by: ScottM on January 9, 2005 05:23 PMWell, one wonders when reasoned argument is abandoned for such callous personal attacks. Usually means the argument has no reasonable merit...so go for the attack.
Posted by: jim on January 9, 2005 07:20 PMYour behavior is a lot like CBS and FedExKinkogate. You want to believe something so bad you'll run with it.
Posted by: MB on January 9, 2005 07:46 PMAs to whether that is defined as illegal or just a honest mistake is up to the court. Christine Gregorie should be eager to press for a court ruling in her favor. It will bring her some sort of legal legitimacy at least.
Let the courts decide. Encourage it. Promote it. I could care less if it's in the best interest of either candidate at this point. A court decision is in the public's best interest. The close election coupled with election "mistakes"in King County makes it too close for anyone to claim victory.
In my opinion, Dino is the better citizen to deal with a 1.8 billion state deficit. I don't think Christine brings the right toolset to our states problems.
Posted by: Mike J on January 9, 2005 08:04 PMNo, it's illegal whether it was an "honest mistake" or not. The law requires that provisional ballots be verified before counting.
Posted by: ScottM on January 9, 2005 08:43 PMYou are stating that the must be followed. I agree with you. But when there is accusations of the scale of what is happening in King County, along with evidence, and an admission from the Elections officer that at least 350 ballots were improperly counted, then I begin to question the whole process of elections here in King County.
The Washington Constitution and law states that fraud does not need to be proved. Only that the ballots in question could effect the outcome of the election. That point has already been established by Dean Logan's admission of improperly counted Provisional Ballots. Remember the difference was 129, the 350 (minimum) incorrectely counted provisional ballots is well with in the range of ballots that would effect the election outcome.
Posted by: Frank on January 12, 2005 12:10 PMPosted by: Frank on January 12, 2005 12:11 PM
The difference between Washington and Florida is that in Flordia Bush won the initial tally, 2 official recounts and 2 or 3 private recounts.
Posted by: DemsInDenial on January 13, 2005 06:12 PM