KING 5 reports:
A judge in Pierce County Superior Court has ruled that the 723 disputed ballots in King County, Wash., should not be included in the ballot recount for Washington state governor.The AP has more.
I think we can all agree that if these 723 ballots were validly cast, they should have been counted six weeks ago and not just stuffed into a samovar in the Politburo dining room only to be discovered by sheer luck during the second recount.
Especially if these ballots are permanently excluded, Democrats should now have reason to be as pissed at the King County Elections Dept. as the Republicans are. Maybe we'll finally have broad consensus and a sense of urgency for wholesale election reform.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at December 17, 2004 03:11 PM | Email ThisThrought the election, republicans claimed activist judges were extensions of the left. How can the supreme court and now pierce county court rule in favor of the republicans but still be activist do-anything-for-democrats-to-win judges?
Posted by: tom on December 17, 2004 03:17 PMRecanvass is not equal to recount. That is why we have to different words in the language of the RCW.
Posted by: Jeff B. on December 17, 2004 03:17 PMIt is about a recount, a retabulation of the existing ballots.
The intent of the law is to reach an end with a winner.
May that be Rossi. The state will finally break out of the Democrat controlled Dark Ages.
Posted by: Jeff B. on December 17, 2004 03:20 PMRalph Munro is right -- whoeever is crowned governor at the end of this will have credibility issues throughtout his/her term. Courts deciding governor just adds to the beliefs out there.
Take a mulligan. Let's start over. Rs all predict Rossi would win handily..which would be great...as he would be elected governor with no clouds hanging over his election!
By the wya, the press reports plenty of republicans who are upset that their votes have been counted
Posted by: tom on December 17, 2004 03:27 PMI am sure that the Ratfinks will now think of another plan...
now I am sure they will talk about "fraud" and how terrible it was for those nasty Republicans to hide all those ballots......LOL
btw...anybody know how many ballots other counties have found since the first election was finished?.......not many, I assume....
Posted by: lee on December 17, 2004 03:32 PMThe other scenario would lead to a) a probably swing in the count, and b) a whole bunch of suspicious ballots that leave the average Joe (who has not been following this election with the electron microscope view that those of us who post here have been) with much more doubt as to the validity of the outcome.
I fully agree that this produces a win for Rossi that is something that is not pleasant for those who want Gregoire, but, it does produce a form of consistency that is much better for the state of WA as a whole than the alternative.
In this case, they aren't making up new law (although they probably want to)...they are enforcing current law. Disagreeing with a law doesn't mean that a judge can (okay, they do a lot of times, but they shouldn't) disregard it and go with their own opinion on what 'should' be...their job is to enforce (and/or to judge its constitutionality...is that a word?) the laws as they exist.
There's no hypocrasy on the R's side...only concern that the rules are followed...interesting that the D's don't want the same.
Posted by: megs on December 17, 2004 03:43 PMIt's over. Time to do what we Republicans do best, plan, mobilize, and win the next big office in 2 years or get Rossi the governorship he EARNED in 4.
Posted by: Ferrous on December 17, 2004 03:54 PMAlso, is this a permenant order, or a temporary one as "Tom" proclaims?
And finally, what, if any, recourse do we as citizens of King County have to take against Dean Logan and the rest of the "staff" at the King County Elections office? Even absent any claims of criminal intent, we clearly have enough cases of incompetence to warrant a complete house cleaning of personel, from the top on down. And I do think we ought to investigate for criminal intent as well, I think there were far too many mistakes to be explained by stupidity alone.
Posted by: Jason on December 17, 2004 04:01 PMThe Supreme Court (where this case will get appealed to) will be loath to make a determination that is partisan in this highly charged and very important matter. This is no time for judicial activism, because unlike morality decisions such as abortions, death penalties, etc. this is a horse race dispute.
The court will be looking to the law to let us know the best place to draw the line that puts Rossi ballots on one side and Gregoire ballots on the other. They already know where to find this, and that is in the language of recount vs. recanvass.
As I have said before, I understand the partisan frustration with an outcome this will produce, but it should be hard, even for you Dems to argue that the Supereme court will not be seeking finality and will not look to the langauge of the law as the best arbiter for this dispute. And this should be what even Dems want. How else do we agree upon such a highly charged question? Not by endless lawsuits and recounts, that is for sure.
Like any good head referee knows, in a very obscure situation in sports, you look to the rule book as a way to resolve the play. We need closure, we need an objective determination to draw a line. The law is the only thing left in this state that is not highly charged and highly partisan. And the RCW will give us the finality we seek, in a way that is most palpable.
It all comes down to two words. Recount vs. Recanvass.
Posted by: Jeff B. on December 17, 2004 04:10 PMI just have to ask myself what the margin will be. I'll find it incredibly ironic if Dinos 42 vote lead is a "tie" but Her Highnesses 2 vote "win" is the will of the people :)
Posted by: Shane on December 17, 2004 04:23 PMIt's simply outrageous and provocative to base further efforts to mine rejections, determine intent, etc. once the results of one and then two counts are know. This sets up conditions for the intensely charged debate we are having.
The best way to resolve this is to pick a line in the sand at which point, all ballots are in. It's like the lottery. If you don't by your ticket by the deadline, you don't get to be in the drawing, even if you had the winning numbers in mind.
It is appropriate that our highest court draw that line, and it is appropriate that the line be drawn based on the language of the law, which is the most objective thing we can find at this point.
This is palpable to the average voter. It may not be the result that any of us want, but loads of profanity, and partisan frustration do not diminish the need for finality in any race. Something has to be our decision point as to who crossed the line first, even if our stopwatch is barely accurate enough to measure the time, and the race was only run by a nose.
Recount vs. Recanvass is the photo for our finish. Live with it. Accept it.
Posted by: Jeff B. on December 17, 2004 04:28 PMI think the ballots should be counted, although the way King County did this is UNACCEPTABLE. There need to be firings on every level and an independent investigation focusing on King County but including the ENTIRE state.
Posted by: Alcon on December 17, 2004 04:29 PMLaughable.
Posted by: Ferrous on December 17, 2004 04:31 PMIn the hand recount, other counties have to deal with manually reviewing previously rejected ballots by hand. Some ballots were accepted and some rejected resulting in additional ballots counted for other counties. But King County already did that during the machine counts.
New ballots is what is needed in King County now. The only pile you can find them in was previously rejected ballots, or mis-placed ballots, or ballots left in machines at the polling place or at Safeway ....
The judge ruled by the law and hopefully it will stand. Still, this being a handcount, everything is still up in the air and we're just waiting for the coin to fall.
Posted by: Mike on December 17, 2004 04:31 PMThe difference between the two scenarios is that the military ballots were invalid because they were late. King County says (which needs to be investigated) that these ballots were fine.
Posted by: Alcon on December 17, 2004 04:37 PMI asked it in another thread: Anyone got any "not MY Govenor!" bumper stickers?
I think that there are enough moderate Dems disgusted by this that there is an advantage now in 06/08. Good things come to those who wait.
Posted by: Shane on December 17, 2004 04:40 PMI told you so. To win, you go to court and you sue! Now the Democrats have to show cause why, in light of the Supreme Court's decision of the other day, that these 777 or whatever are genuine votes. They can't. All the Democrats have been doing is manufacturing
"votes" until somebody had the backbone to end their criminal activity.
At least then it would be due to real counting and not to recancassing which is a subjective process.
I think we may see some other counties with ballots totals dropping as well though when the Supreme Court weighs in and it is decided that all counties cannot recanvass ballots.
Snohomish, smells like recanvass to me. Same with Pierce and others.
Bottom line, all votes should have been in the barrel by the deadlines for absentees after the election, and canvassing of those ballots.
Then, and only then, we reach our hand in the barrel and begin the counting.
What they want to do in King County is add more ballots to the barrel. How can anyone agree that this is fair?
Rossi +15
Gregoire +8
Bennett +3
Overall +7 Rossi, for a +8 recount lead overall without King. Rossi currently leads by exactly 50 votes.
Posted by: Alcon on December 17, 2004 04:48 PMRecanvassing now however is totally unacceptable. It's a clear attempt to mine the rejected votes. It's just not a palpable process when the outcome of the counts is known. This recanvassing behavior should be squarely rejected by the Supreme Court.
I don't think it will be a problem. Everyone, ask yourself, If you had this awesome responsibility as a neutral arbiter and Supreme Court justice, would you want a ruling that left everyone suspicious, or a more conservative ruling that drew a line that people simply had to abide by? This is a no brainer.
Posted by: Jeff B. on December 17, 2004 05:06 PMThe upside was that I certainly felt we could do worse than Her Highness (Sims leaps to mind). I looked at her as a dedicated public servant who had differing views than me.
I no longer feel that way about her. The idea that she and Howard Dean were 2 different kinds of Dem is no longer. I've also voted my last split ticket....I havent seen D one stand up and say this was wrong.
The Democrats have destroyed themselves from within, and are driving away all the "Middle Road"
Posted by: Shane on December 17, 2004 05:10 PMI dont know if you live in Seattle, but I didn't pay anywhere near 30 bucks for tabs. Monorail alone was 346.00. for a 2001 Mitsubishi Eclipse.......not like Im a Microsoftie driving a Hummer :)
Posted by: Shane on December 17, 2004 05:45 PM"The military ballots were sent late - they did not vote before the deadline. I have great respect for our military, but it is not right to accept late votes."
But - the military voters received their ballots too late to return them by the deadline, because King County apparently sent them out late. Why is that any less acceptable than the votes that were rejected because election officials failed to check old registration cards, or ballots that were "lost" in the pockets of the voting machines?
Posted by: Patrick on December 17, 2004 07:01 PMMilitary folks who ballots were delayed due to errors in election office do not have that option.
I am also concerned that if this election comes down to 10 or 15 votes. How many Christine Rossi votes are counting for who? Are all the counties counting them the same way?
Posted by: Ralph on December 17, 2004 09:00 PMIf Rossi wins, and these votes are not counted, some enterprising reporter will contact those voters (we know their names after all) and will offer a tabulation of the "real result". If it comes out as expected and Gregoire would have won, Rossi will be justifiably called a Governor that did not win election. It would not be like Florida in 2000 where we had a bunch of suppositions and what ifs. We have real live voters who we can identify. And no Electoral College to offer as an alternative.
I have reluctantly come to 2 beliefs:
1. Both parties are actively working to steal this election (I suppose I shouldn't be surprised).
2. I think both candidates have been irrepairably wounded through this process and we need a run off election. Hopefully, the result will be clear.
Posted by: Ed on December 18, 2004 09:00 AMGiven the very suspect list of names, with many appearing to have been planted to make a case (signatures of some on that list are KNOWN to be "on file") I wouldn't care HOW that list broke out. They should have been counted during the first count. This is a REcount, NOT a "NEW" count. Anyone who is calling for a "NEW" count, needs to be looking into the faces of those responsible for the incompetent spectacle they made of the first count.
They have shown a reckless disregard for accuracy, and thrown a shadow of doubt on all of the elections in the recent past.
Posted by: Julie on December 18, 2004 09:36 AMI would agree that the election system in this state (probably all others as well) is broken. Whenever an election margin is within the margin of error for accuracy of the tabulating devices, we will have this problem. There are two real questions:
1. How do we fix the system?
2. How does the next Governor effectively govern with this election as their mandate?
The other side of my brain would grab such a person if they were in my presence, and b!tch slap them until they achieved either revelation or headlessness.
A previous poster says...If Gregoire wins, there will be great doubt about the credibility of the vote count in King County... Uh, guess what...there's no doubt about the credibility of the King County Elections Dept. There is no credibility.
Hey, Mr. Logan...your department screwed up. Big time. Repeatedly. If a private company did this to consumers, the state would be perp-walking those involved. If anything is clear, it's that King County can't run elections. They can't follow their own procedures, and they're discovering ballots by the hundreds, weeks after the election. State election law doesn't allow introducing those ballots on the second recount because of the potential for fraud. Incompetence isn't a defense.
We're where we are because of the incompetence (at best!) of King County Election Dept. Mr Logan now asserts that HE'S being the responsible party in calling to add ballots his department mishandled.
That's a nice use of spin, if he can pull it off...let's talk about "fixing" a problem, without asking why it's necessary to fix anything...
Posted by: South County on December 18, 2004 10:28 AMReliability and public faith will be restored to King County only if the mis- or malfeasance of that ballot-mishandling elections board is thoroughly investigated, and the responsible individuals actually prosecuted for violating legitimate voters' rights. More than likely, a trial or appeals court would let the perps off, but their successors would be motivated to do better.
And the Democratic National Committee, instead of shovelling John Kerry's ill-gotten accumulated campaign funds into the pockets of Washington trial lawyers, would be beter advised in funding neighborhood classes for their proletarian clients in 'how to fill out a ballot legibly' and 'when to go to the polls'. They already do well enough on 'who to vote for' and 'how to fill out absentee ballots of absent relatives, or relatives smaller than you'.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on December 18, 2004 12:31 PM