November 25, 2004
Logan: Hand Recount Less Accurate

King County Elections Director Dean Logan appears to think poorly of a likely request by failed Democratic gubernatorial candidate Christine Gregoire to demand a hand recount. Gregoire lost by 42 votes to Republican Dino Rossi after a machine recount was completed yesterday; the earlier margin for Rossi had been 261 votes. Most of Gregoire's gain came in King County, where Seattle and some suburban voters form the largest part of her base.

Here's Logan, like Gregoire a Democrat, in today's Seattle Times:

"When you're talking about close to 900,000 pieces of paper, I think the machine count is going to be more accurate than a manual count," said Dean Logan, the elections director. "You introduce another human interface into the process. There's a margin there for errors to be made."

Errors which Gregoire and Washington state Democrats are counting on, it seems. More from The Times:

Democrats made it clear they will probably request a hand recount, either in selected counties or statewide, after Democrat Christine Gregoire finished the first statewide recount 42 votes behind Republican Dino Rossi.

If a hand recount is ordered in King County, election officials said yesterday they expect to rent a large room — likely at Boeing Field — where 70 tables could be set up for recounting.

In contrast to this week's machine recount, in which ballots were fed through optical scanners, next time the scanning would be done by human eyes. Workers would count ballots in teams of three: two to count and a third to record their results.

Meanwhile, Washington state Democratic Party Chairman Paul Berendt wins today's tin foil crown for these accusations, reported today in this Seattle Times story ("A Governor By Christmas?"), but uttered earlier in the week:

"This is a Karl Rove-driven operation in this state," Berendt said earlier this week, referring to President Bush's chief political strategist. "We are not going to let the Washington, D.C., Republicans steal this election from Chris Gregoire."

Paul, Paul. Back on your meds. Now!

And Ms. Gregoire: As a career "public servant" and politician, I know it's hard to let go. But the time has come. You're giving your party a black eye, and badly embarrassing yourself. As a former state Attorney General, a cushy six-figure jobs awaits you in any one of a number of Seattle law firms. Justice has been dispensed. Get on with your life, so the State of Washington can get on with its business.

Cross-posted at Rosenblog.

Posted by Matt Rosenberg at November 25, 2004 11:17 AM | Email This
Comments
1. If worse comes to worst...a recount can always be followed by a recall....after all these Dem shenanigans that will embitter people, she would not survive it!! People are starting to get really angry out there.

Posted by: Susu on November 25, 2004 12:39 PM
2. It will be interesting once every single one of those provisional ballot holders is contacted IN PERSON to confirm identity and signatures. Let us never forget that I was Mr. Berendt who personally delivered that box of 400+ ballots...they have been segregated and still need independent validation. Did we ever get a seperate count of those 400+ ballots????? Let's get focused on this again until all fraud can be fully dismissed on those 400+ ballots. If Paul is 100% squeaky clean, I'll be the first to salute him. However, these ballots seem to be melting into the mass. If one of those ballots is from a dead guy, unavailable person or the real person denies signing that affadavit....we have the scandal we need to end this re-counting right now!!!! Anyone know if all these provisional folks have been contacted and confirmed????

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on November 25, 2004 12:40 PM
3. Matt;

Job well done. We need to Webcam the hand recount. "Governor Dean" Logan must be confronted. Preferably now. What you say about shutting down Seattle?

Josef

Posted by: Josef on November 25, 2004 01:55 PM
4. If there is yet another recount, and Gregoire changes how the voters of this state voted to make her the winner, look for our state to become a political war zone. I agree, if Gregoire is able to steal the election, a recall is the least we should do. I also think we need to start a letter program to all of our newspapers condeming Gregoire, flood the papers everyday.

Posted by: Kyle on November 25, 2004 02:00 PM
5. If Gregoire does win a third count, we could hold protests in the streets. I know here in Longview all we need to do is get the YR's together and we could cause a major problem, none the less the entire county GOP. Go to city council meetings and demand the city pass something to protest the stealing of the election.

Posted by: Kyle on November 25, 2004 02:04 PM
6. Kyle, let's worry about the recount first. Then I'll agree with you.

I would also read Article I, Section 33 of the State Constitution HERE and start your recall research from there. This isn't California and remember: They honestly tried to do a lot of recalls before 2003 with their low ceiling and failed.

Posted by: Josef on November 25, 2004 02:51 PM
7. I have added some good hyperlinks at my blog HERE about the situation and some other interesting news. A new blog post has been started.

Posted by: Josef on November 25, 2004 04:04 PM
8. Mr. Logan is correct, but didn't mention another element of the hand recount. The several hundred temporary workers that King County must hire to hand count ballots introduces further elements of potential for fraud and/or error. AG Gregoire must know this, and if she had scruples she would acknowledge that a hand recount will leave the state with an unreliable result. It would be helpful if Mr. Vance and Mr. Reed would get this fact into the press.

Posted by: zip on November 25, 2004 05:49 PM
9. Can someone enlighten me as to what Washington election law says about observers? In my county here in California a manual recount is set up with up to eight people at a table, handling one precinct at a time. Four of the people are election staffers: One holds up and observes a ballot while a second staffer reads it and calls out the result. The other two staffers write down independent vote tallies. When they've finished going through a precinct, the two tallies must match or they redo the precinct. Meanwhile, up to two observers representing each candidate can watch the process and raise an objection if they see an error being made.

If observers are permitted for the hand recounts in Washington, it is CRUCIAL that each candidate have an adequate number of people present to keep the process honest.

Posted by: Daniel Wiener on November 25, 2004 08:11 PM
10. I voted absentee in King County, my husband voted absentee in Idaho. While we were both pleased that Bush won, he felt a little sad that his ballot will never even be counted. He says I'm getting my money's worth getting mine counted 2 - 3 times. I think 2 times would have been plenty, although I don't blame them for trying with the margin so small.

While we don't expect to be back in the Pacific Northwest until we retire sometime around 2011, we do care what goes on there and my parents and brother still live in Renton.

My in-laws live in Boise. They've been getting WA State election news almost daily since the first alter election day counting. The rest of the nation only hears a little bit here and there unless they search it out on the internet. I'm the only person I know in Alabama who's following the issue.

Posted by: Elizabeth B on November 25, 2004 11:05 PM
11. It's interesting to me to read Chris Gregoire say that she doesn't want to turn this state into a Florida when she's about to do just that. I'm going to be sick if I see canvassing boards around the state holding up ballots looking at chads to "determine voter intent."

Gregoire's perspective that we need this recount so that the state doesn't have "lingering questions" over the governor's legitimacy is ridiculous. Her campaign manager Tim Zenk said: "There’s no question that a hand recount is more accurate." Sorry Tim. I question that. In fact, Dean Logan doesn't agree. I'm sure a poll of county elections officials across the state would agree that the hand count is less accurate. Anyone who has ever counted out 50 $1 bills can tell you that manual counting is fraught with problems.

Gregoire needs to realize that should she overturn the result ... she isn't going to escape the "lingering questions" over the governor's election legitimacy. Winning a third recount isn't going to christen her governor *without* question and 50% skeptical that she didn't steal it. The simple and sad fact is whoever is ultimately sworn in Jan. 12 (hopefully) is going to have to live and govern the state with a divided electorate. It's inescapable.

Gregoire also needs to remember ... that just because you can doesn't mean you should. I hope she understands the ramifications of her decision to drag this out. John Kerry made the right and perhaps noble decision in regard to Ohio and not dragging out the Presidential race waiting for "hope upon hope" to somehow give him that state.

Was it his right to wait for the provisionals, maybe to conduct recounts there, to file lawsuits, to make accusations of impropriety? Sure. And it would have been easy to say "I will continue to fight". Given the "nuclear" heated presidential face. Given the thousands of locked and loaded lawyers. But he said no. And in doing so he did the honorable thing in shutting that course of action down.

People (regardless of how they voted) respect him for that decision. Respect and appreciate him for not dragging the country down.

Chris Gregoire needs to do the same in Washington.

Posted by: Disappointed in Seattle on November 26, 2004 01:11 AM
12. That's as astute a summary as can be found.

Posted by: South County on November 26, 2004 08:49 AM
13. I also agree with Dean Logan. A hand recount is filled with "human factors". These ballots have been handled numerous times already. The machine is set up to look at ballots with a certain standard and no human prejudice. The totals are simply that...the result of independently looking at each ballot. The machine wasn't interested in whether Gregoire or Rossi won. Once it was determined a ballot was legitimate to count...the machine was 100% non-prejudiced.

My larger problem is with how they determined whether a ballot was legitimate to count. I hope we don't lose sight of these provisional ballots, clean-up the voter roles, require some sort of ID in the future etc. The real problems are with the legitamacy issues.

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on November 26, 2004 10:03 AM
14. FYI:

Chris Vance and Paul Berendt will be squaring off today at 1 PM on the Dori Monson show on 710 AM (KIRO) radio--Frank Shire is sitting in for Monson.

Posted by: Breyers on November 26, 2004 12:38 PM
15. I posted this at horsesass.org earlier today.

My opinion on the recount has changed the more I have thought about it. Initially I was swept up by the idea that “every vote should count and count every vote” – I was definitely in this “countilingus” camp with the ultimate climax to be achieved through a “hand job.” However, no matter how enticing “countilingus” might sound, I found myself agreeing with Gregoire that the election is essentially a “tie.” Within our ability to discern the will of the voters, it is a tie. A hand job might make us feel better, but lets not kid ourselves – in an election this close the margin or error in a hand job is greater than the difference in votes. Therefore, within our ability to discern it, the voters are equally divided on who they want to be governor. Taken as a whole, another way of saying this is the voters of the State of Washington are “indifferent” as to who the governor should be.

How do we then decide the governor? We can accept the results of the initial count and recount as legitimate and proclaim Rossi as governor. We could spend several weeks and several hundred thousand dollars for a “hand job” and accept those results as legitimate. Gregoire might win the hand job, but given the margin of error those results will no more reflect the will of the people than the recently completed machine recount. If we accept that the people of the State of Washington are indifferent as to whom their governor should be and another count while it might change the result will not resolve this “tie” then what is best for the state and its citizens? I submit the best course is to accept the results of the recount already completed and move on. We don’t need the turmoil, expense and time involved in another recount to reach a place that is no different than where we are today – a tie. The citizens of Washington will not gain with a recount – the only person who could possibly gain is Gregoire. Sure, she would be governor, but no more people will be happy with the results as are happy with the results of the current recount. For the good of the State of Washington we should call the election where it stands and as Lewis and Clark said “proceed on.”

I must offer two caveats. An attorney for the Democratic Party wrote a letter to Sam Reed mentioning several concerns that go to the legitimacy of the recount. Those questions should be answered. Second, if door to door validations of provisional ballots were obtained for only one candidate in King County, then in my opinion that constitutes political interference with the election process and should be disallowed. It may be legally or technically permissible, but that type of post election political activity should not be permitted. If that type of post election activity takes place, it should be equally applied.

Beyond these caveats, the best course for the people of the state is to recognize this election was a statistical tie, accept the legitimate recount results just completed and not drag this process out for several more weeks. No result will be perfect, but the longer we draw this out the more we call into question the validity of the entire election process. I think that will do more harm than good. The results might be different, but overall the people of Washington are indifferent (equally divided) as to the results. The people need rather some sense of legitimacy and closure. I think that would best be achieved by Gergoire saying she accepts the result of the recount. This would help legitimizing the process and help the state. The people are equally divided in their choice for governor, but we all want to have a sense of legitimacy in the process. Only Gergoire could provide that through a concession rather than through a hand job.

Posted by: Jim D. on November 26, 2004 02:54 PM
16. Except it's not a tie. A photo finish, perhaps, but there's still a winner even if you have to go to a millisecond.

Posted by: Raoul Ortega on November 26, 2004 03:02 PM
17. Another point— What we need to do is change the law . We are already limited to three counts, but what should be added is that instead of declaring the winner to be the person ahead on the last count, it would be two out of three. Then the only reason for a third count would be when the second reverses the first.

Or else lets make it three out of five.

Posted by: Raoul Ortega on November 26, 2004 03:06 PM
18. Posted by Jim D. at November 26, 2004 02:54 PM

I hate to flip-flop, but IF the Gregoire AND, AND Rossi camps' concerns can be addressed - then I agree. If memory serves, Rossi's camp was concerned about the provisional ballots.

IF the concerns cannot, then go for the hand recount.

Posted by: Josef on November 26, 2004 03:36 PM
19. Also, I forgot to add but I did some statewide WWW research on the recount and recount snafus in my latest update, which you can read HERE.

Posted by: Josef on November 26, 2004 03:45 PM
20. I am amazed at Gregoire statement "my friends, that is a tie". If the shoe were on the other foot, she would not be calling it a tie. A win by even one vote is not a tie. It concerns me that a she would call it a tie and as governor would be responsible for signing and enacting a budget - that type of thinking would lead one to say "we're only 42 million dollars in the hole so the budget is balanced". Do the right thing, Christine, throw in the towel and try again next time.

Posted by: troy colley on November 26, 2004 06:46 PM
21. Troy's right on that one - and I'd use the phrase "extremely close" if the shoe was on the other foot.

That said, I've dug up some research on further Gregoire hypocrisy HERE in my last update for today in Update 4. Update 3, in paragraphs 2 & 3 talks more about the issue of Berendt and counting votes.

Posted by: Josef on November 26, 2004 08:39 PM
22. I guess if I were with the Rossi campaign, I would be saying every vote has been counted, twice. The more we allow statements like "every vote should count" without countering them we imply that some have not. I don't believe that. In fact, by the looks of things we've allowed votes to count that common logic would say should not have counted (ie. didn't sign your envelope when the instructions say to do so or your vote won't count, etc.) Ah well, as Warren Zevon said - send lawyers, guns and money . . .

Posted by: troy colley on November 26, 2004 10:08 PM
23. Comments from a differnt perspective.

1. In every election due to suppression of legal voters or inequalities in made. Dem votes are undercounted by about 2%. This is why I always say Dem need to win by 2% to break even.

2. The votes have been tabulated by machines then added. NO COUNT has occured.

3. And I beleive this with every core in my body. Dino would be doing the same thing and you all would be all for it.

Posted by: rog on November 26, 2004 11:00 PM
24. Main Entry: tab·u·late
Pronunciation: 'ta-by&-"lAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
Etymology: Latin tabula tablet
1 : to put into tabular form
2 : to count, record, or list systematically

A rose by another name . . .

Posted by: troy colley on November 27, 2004 12:19 AM
26. I made a little video showing what I think are and have been Mr. Logan's true intentions you can find here.

Posted by: MC on November 27, 2004 01:06 AM
27. Since in every election, some 2-5% of Democratic votes are manufactured (that is, phantom or fraudulent), giving statewide Dem candidates a head start, I'd say Rossi has an impressive mandate.

Cordially...

Posted by: Rick on November 27, 2004 10:27 AM
28. I voted absentee in King County, my husband voted absentee in Idaho. ...
While we don't expect to be back in the Pacific Northwest until we retire sometime around 2011, we do care what goes on there and my parents and brother still live in Renton.
...I'm the only person I know in Alabama who's following the issue."

Respectfully: You don't reside in King County OR in Idaho. You should not be voting in either. Voting is done WHERE you reside. Absentee ballots were NOT designed to allow someone to vote in a state other than their own.

You are breaking the law here. Please get yourself registered in Alabama and vote where you live. (Unless you're military. I understand why military, college students temporarily residing elsewhere, etc are allowed to vote. But with you and your husband voting in two different -states- this is apparently not the same thing)

Posted by: Sarah Schreffler on November 27, 2004 06:06 PM
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