November 23, 2004
A Democrat's "Tie"

What do the Democrats call it when a Republican wins a vote count and is also the presumptive winner of the recount? The Democrats call it a "tie":

OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Republican Dino Rossi kept his razor-thin lead in the Washington governor's race as counties faced a Wednesday deadline for recounting 2.8 million ballots - and girded for yet another possible recount.

Both political parties were poised to request a rare hand recount if they don't like Wednesday's results. That count would take until nearly Christmas to complete.

"It looks like that's the only way we'll ever break this tie," state Democratic Party Chairman Paul Berendt said Tuesday.

When is a "tie" not a tie


Dino Rossi is currently leading by 287 votes. The only county which hasn't reported yet is King, which favored Gregoire by a margin of 17.7%.

Tim Goddard's analysis of voting machines suggests that the King County automatic recount is expected to produce 128 new votes. These are expected to go to Gregoire with a 17.7% margin, for a net gain of 23 votes, leaving Rossi with a 264 vote lead. Then there are the 710 surgically enhanced haruspex votes. In order for these votes to wipe out Rossi's lead, they would have to go to Gregoire by a 37% margin (67% - 30%, instead of the 58% - 40% margin in the first count). That's a tall order.

Should the Democrats overcome this mathemtical hurdle in the King County recount, it would be interesting to figure out how they beat the laws of probability. On the other hand, if they don't overcome these hurdles (i.e. they lose) but refuse to concede, it would be interesting to hear their explanation why they insist it is still a "tie".

UPDATE. One of my friends who's been observing the King County recount reports that "there are no more Canvass Board meetings scheduled in King County, except to certify the results". A report is expected late Wednesday morning or early afternoon. My friend adds portentously:

After observing many, many ballots, one conclusion I may draw is that Republicans tend to follow the instructions on the ballots, while Democrats ignore them. I do not believe that the "enhanced" ballots will break in the 58% to 40% ratio.
One can only wonder what other election rules same Democrats tend to ignore.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at November 23, 2004 09:19 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Now, this is the kind of analysis I like to see. Not being a person of numbers, I enjoy taking in the statistical information others can crunch. Ultimately for my question of the day, this article provides the answers. Thanks.

Posted by: Troy Colley on November 23, 2004 10:05 PM
2. Stefan- I had been watching both Kitsap County's website and the Secretary of State, but do NOT see recount totals posted at either- what ARE the new numbers, and where are they being found?

Posted by: Jim King on November 23, 2004 10:44 PM
3. There's a link to a news story in the main recount page below link

Posted by: Stefan Sharkansky on November 23, 2004 10:47 PM
4. Should have thought to check the Sun...

Posted by: Jim King on November 23, 2004 10:58 PM
5. If Flynn is releasing unofficial results, that means they are probably done but need the Kitsap County Canvassing Board stamp of approval...

Whitman has official results posted...

Bring on King County... latest postings still show the King County Canvassing Board not set to meet until 3pm Wednesday...

Posted by: Jim King on November 23, 2004 11:11 PM
6. Thanks for the insight, what these people mean to say is:
You're a G-D Rock Star...

Posted by: P. Scott Cummins on November 23, 2004 11:12 PM
7. From Wednesday's P-I:

King County Elections spokeswoman Bobbie Egan said that results are due early this afternoon.

Secretary of State Sam Reed will announce the statewide results of the recount at 4:15 p.m. today.

Posted by: Jim King on November 23, 2004 11:48 PM
8. And from the Seattle Times:

Kitsap County, which had one disputed ballot to send to its canvassing board today, hasn't reported its recount. Whitman County did its recount but has three ballots to review today. But neither of those counties is likely to put much of a dent in Rossi's lead.

Posted by: Jim King on November 24, 2004 12:15 AM
9. I think we know how the D's will spin it - it will be that we didn't 'count every vote', and that we 'disenfranchised minorities', etc. I can hear Paul Berendt now...

Since it is a 'tie', it's an even bet that the D's will insist on a manual recount...unless Gregoire manages to summon the moral courage to do what even John Kerry did and throw in the towel.

Posted by: Kevin S on November 24, 2004 12:21 AM
10. Folks;

I think Baghdad Bob has re-emerged in Paul Berendt! Or he's a consultant! It's getting silly.

Speaking of the real one, did you know he once said, "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!"

You can go HERE, as in "We Love the Iraqi Information Minister"
for more insane quotes. And HERE, for the latest update - I'm now on Edition 6 . Edition 5.82 discusses briskly the Baghdad Bob Berendt situation!

Make sure you also read your Seattle Times today!

Posted by: Josef on November 24, 2004 07:50 AM
11. Great analysis & commentary. Having been through a whole bunch of elections myself (State House,Senate,Seattle Mayor, governor where I lost by less than one vote per precinct and carried 36 of 39 counties) I see three lessons from all of this:
1. The ground game (GOTV) does matter...a lot.
2. You need enough $$ to remain competative and
finish strong.
3. Moderates can win...idealogues lose.
Go Dino! Break out the champaign!

Posted by: wes uhlman on November 24, 2004 08:08 AM
12. Do we expect KC to report before their 3:00p meeting, or is that when we can expect to get the results.

Posted by: Marc on November 24, 2004 08:52 AM
13. That 3pm meeting is when the canvassing board will certify their results...

May be leaks before then, but that will be the official action.

Posted by: Jim King on November 24, 2004 09:07 AM
14. If someone knows the count before then, it will be leaked for sure. Thanks Jim. What do you think, does Rossi hold on? I just don't think he does. I think that Gregoire will win the "enhanced" ballots by 35 - 40% and then will add another 50 or so from the standard recount. She wins by a dozen or so ...

Posted by: Marc on November 24, 2004 09:23 AM
15. Thanks for providing this excellent site about the election/recount! I could do without the slandering and insinuations of fraud and cheating. We are lucky to have the people in charge of the electoral process that we do, here in Washington. We do not have to put up with the blatant partisan tactics that have been employed in other states, such as providing fewer voting machines in some precincts compared to others (in the same county!), thus resulting in voter line-ups lasting 5 hours! I do wish Sam Reed had opted for the hand recount straight off, though. It would have saved us a lot of angst. The vote margin was less than .01%, so he did have that option.
Whoever is the final winner, I will have confidence that the final tally will be as near to the truth as we can hope for.
By the way, if Rossi does win, and he really does want to help the small business person, the first order of business should be to repeal the B&O tax (and probably replace it with another type of tax, less onerous to the small business owner!).

Posted by: IAN on November 24, 2004 09:34 AM
16. This is dead on. A well oiled and working democracy depends on an educated electorate. Any person who has the "intent" to vote, will take the time to understand the candidates and issues and the instructions on how to vote, and then cast their ballot.

All of this whining about "every vote counting" etc. is just the Democrats trying to sway the election. One can infer from the comments of the observer friend that Shark has at the canvassing board that many Democrats are simply voting at the urging of their intellectual masters. Voting, being something that they do not usually do, or do not take seriously, becomes a difficult process with many failing to follow the simple ballot instructions. If these so called voters did indeed care about voting, then they would have no trouble getting to the correct precinct or following the instructions and properly filling our their ballots.

I'm sure there were many Democratic voters that truly believed in the issues they were voting for, were well educated and took the time to read the instructions and vote properly. But the academic and media intellectuals on the left are not really interested in the thinking voters, they are interested in the kind of voters that they can sway with emotion and fear and somehow coax or transport to the polls regardless of whether or not they know how or care to vote, simply to get their votes on the Democratic side. Even to the nth recount, the Democrats will be srutinizing the "intent" of these inept voters to try and find every last Democratic vote in the pool of improperly cast ballots.

This is the real and Democrat meaning of "every vote counts."

Posted by: Jeff B on November 24, 2004 09:35 AM
17. Marc - Let's look at the #'s here...Rossi is currently up by 287. If we look at the last batch of absentees/provisionals on 11/17, we see that Gregoire won by 65% to 32% with Bennett pulling 3%.

If that ratio is applied to the 710 remakes, Gregoire gets 462, Rossi 227, and Bennett 21.

That results in a net gain of 235 for Gregoire...cutting Rossi's lead to 52 votes.

So, if Gregoire were to gain another 50 votes, as you speculate, then it would be a close call indeed.

I'm hoping it won't be this bad...this assessment seems to me to be the best case scenario for Gregoire.

I think Dino will hold on...but ever so narrowly.

Posted by: Kevin S on November 24, 2004 09:35 AM
18. Kevin S - I hope you are right.

Posted by: Marc on November 24, 2004 09:49 AM
19. Shouldn't the machine recount only include those ballots that the machine will read? By including 700+ ballots that were mismarked and divined by humans, isn't King County in fact doing a partial hand recount? In fact they are, in order to narrow the race to the point that they can justify another full hand-recount. Divide and conquer, the more recounts, the greater the chance to divine more votes for the democrat. Same game that played out in Florida in 2000.

Posted by: David on November 24, 2004 09:57 AM
20. David - I agree, and wish it were otherwise. However, the law in WA is that election officials may try to divine voter intent and remark the ballot accoringly.

If voter intent is unclear, the ballot is supposed to go to the canvassing board for review. However, this depends on the election officials having enough integrity to send it there in the first place.

Needless to say, this can be quite a subjective process. In some counties, we have officials that are more fair and impartial, others may be less so.

If this gets into another recount, this one by hand, there's no telling what may result.

Posted by: Kevin S on November 24, 2004 10:05 AM
21. Just for the sake of discussion, does anybody know what the law is if it wound up tied?

Truly, literally tied?

Unlikely, I know...but not impossible.

Posted by: Kevin S on November 24, 2004 10:11 AM
22. My guess is the State Legislature would appoint a Governor, in this case Gregoire.

Posted by: Marc on November 24, 2004 10:12 AM
23. Yep, Dori Monson had the info on that one. A tie results in a mutually decided tiebreaker. Coin flip and high card are suggested by the state, but the candidates can mutually decide on anything (rock, paper, scissors is what I say!)

Posted by: bmvaughn on November 24, 2004 10:13 AM
24. Kitsap County's canvassing board meets at 1pm...

Should this drag out past noon, January 12, 2005- thus, should there be a vacancy in the office of Governor- Lt. Governor Brad Owen would fill in until the issues are settled.

Posted by: Jim King on November 24, 2004 10:31 AM
25. Whitman just came official.. -9 gregoire, -4 Rossi, -1 Ruth.

Rossi is +325 now with 64.65% recounted. 2 to go.

Posted by: bmvaughn on November 24, 2004 10:39 AM
26. So those last three in Whitman must have gone one for Rossi, one for Gregoire, and one with no discernible intent... But I think that makes the margin plus 321 for Dino...

Posted by: Jim King on November 24, 2004 10:49 AM
27. Jeez! You don't have to also slander people who Vote Dem, by questioning their intelligence, integrity etc. Are you guys so lacking in reason and imagination that you cannot conceive of other reasons why people may have not followed exact instructions in filling out their voting cards? Well, for a start, I can certainly imagine that many elderly (i.e. over 60!) voters have not grown up with computer scanning and therefore do not get the importance of actually filling in that little bubble! Instead they might make a cross or some such mark. Is that so difficult to understand? And, no, they are not cheating! Why shouldn't you count their vote?

Posted by: Ian on November 24, 2004 10:50 AM
28. Stefan, your remarks regrding Ds and Rs following the rules are a little odd. One would assume that most of the extra votes that are being tallied are the result of a similar process that you and the other Rs are deriding in King County. Mr. Rossi seems to be doing OK in those results, so one must assume that at least outside King County, it is the Rs who have the most trouble with the election rules.

Posted by: Steven on November 24, 2004 10:54 AM
29. I don't care if they are R's or D's or other, it is not asking too much of people to follow simple instructions.

And, I believe seniors are just as capable of understanding the instructions as anyone else.

Posted by: Kevin S on November 24, 2004 11:01 AM
30. How does Tim Goddard's analysis explain the changes in vote totals in Pierce, Snohomish, and Spokane counties? Given their comparative sizes, we shouldn't then be surprised to see a King county change of the order of 1400 votes; or do we suspect shenanigans in Pierce, Snohomish and Spokane too?

Posted by: Jack on November 24, 2004 11:08 AM
31. Steven - They counted 1,800,000+ ballots and the net margin changed +26 votes for Rossi. In King County they only have 875,000 ballots, but how much do you want to bet that it changes more than 26 votes in favor of Gregoire? Also, consider this. If King County comes up with Gregoire net +288 they will have only counted only about 1/3 of the total ballots, but they will have come up with a net vote change 10 times that of the rest of the state combined. I think that should put to rest who knows how to complete their ballots correctly, Republicans or Democrats don't you?

Posted by: Marc on November 24, 2004 11:13 AM
32. Jack - Read all of Tim's analysis. He emphasizes the type of machinery being used in the recount. According to him, King County's equipment is the most accurate of all the types being used and should result in very little change relative to the machinery used in some of the other counties. FWIW.

Posted by: Marc on November 24, 2004 11:16 AM
33. Ian,

I'll quote directly from the Pierce County Ballot. "TO VOTE, connect the arrow with a single line pointing to your choice(s) like this:

Seems like pretty simply instructions to me. There's even a little picture of what the filled in arrow should look like. And as the instructions say, if you make a mistake, you can get another ballot. Also, the precinct workers are there to help. If you don't understand the instructions, you can ask for help. If a person is voting absentee, there are numbers you can call to ask for help.

Computer scanning is designed to recognize either the lines or bubbles, even if they are not filled in perfectly. If the voter makes even the most basic attempt to fill in the line or the circle, the machine will read it almost every single time.

Trying to blame the voting process or defend incompetent voters by accusing it of being complex is craven.

Posted by: Jeff B on November 24, 2004 11:18 AM
34. Ian- It is pure rubish. ..all the hypocritical blather about idiot voters, can't follow the rules.......and on and on...makes me vomit...all because they think they are loosing.

Mother Rose-shaky voice and hand, had a lot of problems in the last years of her voting life. Very shakey, tried hard but just looked terribly untidy, like scribbles.

Of course the republicrats don't have that proble with their aged, and I hear no near creeping blindness either. Lucky, lucky folk- all prime Aryans.

Sorry to say- they sound very mean spirited, lashing out wildly in the face of reason and good government.- and politically constipated to boot........not a finishing school tem, but OK here, troublingly anal retentive.

Rossi needs to get those ears clipped, dress up the little wife a bit and keep in the game. Young and virle, plenty of cash even in the bad business state he made it big, millions, I hear. That is the American way. JK

Posted by: jackie kennedy on November 24, 2004 11:18 AM
35. Newspapers are reporting 710 enhanced ballots in King County. If they go for Gregoire in a larger proportion than rest of the ballots that could be bad news indeed for Rossi.

Posted by: Nathan Azinger on November 24, 2004 11:20 AM
36. The King County website is now reporting that recount results will be posted by 3:30pm. No change in 3pm time for canvassing board to meet.

Posted by: Jim King on November 24, 2004 11:29 AM
37. "David - I agree, and wish it were otherwise. However, the law in WA is that election officials may try to divine voter intent and remark the ballot accoringly."

For recounts, not really true. From the FAQs on the SoS webpage (www.sectate.wa.gov): Q: What is a recount? A: "A recount is the process where the counties simply re-tabulate all the ballots that were counted in the original count. In the original count, final determinations are made by the county canvassing boards on what votes will be counted. The recount does not allow a review of decisions by the county canvassing boards of what constitutes a vote. Thus, the same ballots counted in the original count will simply be recounted."

As I have said before, this ought to be obvious to folks who can conceive of a difference between hand and machine re-counting (or who wish to hold KC to its own rules rather than allow them do do whatever they want to include illegal ballots in their total). And its codified in law, as well - the Washington Code is explicit about how to determine the validity of votes during the original count. BUT NOT THE RECOUNT - there is little definition of recounting except for the winning margin requirements for machine or hand recounting and the provision to allow a hand recount at the expense of the party requesting it.

According to today's Seattle Times, KC elections did not perform the process of determining which votes were valid during the original count. Other counties with optical scanning did, and that is why they were able to do quick recounts with small changes. So KC can't even follow its own rules, and now that the vote is close, it is applying election-night counting rules to the recount, ostensibly to "make every vote count."

Posted by: srogers on November 24, 2004 11:30 AM
38. Jackie Kennedy -

You say the Republicans are mean-spirited and lashing out wildly....yet you call them 'Aryans'? Hello, pot, this is the kettle calling - you're black! YOU are a hypocrite, JK!

Then you make comments about Dino's physical appearance and his wife. How sweet of you. You are so objective and non-judgmental. NOT!

Furthermore, you might want to learn how to spell, okay? It's RUBBISH, and it's LOSING, and it's....oh, man, I can't even correct them all. Your spelling is horrible, your grammer and syntax is worse. Get an education, okay?

Reason and good government? You wouldn't know them even if they did exist in the current Washington State administration.

Peace out

Posted by: Larry on November 24, 2004 11:39 AM
39. HEY LARRY

grammar :)

Posted by: bmvaughn on November 24, 2004 11:42 AM
40. Oops...I live in a glass house, I guess.

Posted by: Larry on November 24, 2004 11:44 AM
41. Rogers is right on. I made this same comment on Goddard's website a couple days ago. Simply put, King County's procedures are more akin to those of an election rather than a recount.

King County officials seem to be continuing its tradition of contributing a fatal dose of incompetence at the nerve center of democracy - the electoral process.

Posted by: Patrick on November 24, 2004 11:46 AM
42. After reading all the conspiracy theories and whining in this blog, I'm not sure how I want the recount to come out. It would make for weeks of incredibly amusing reading if somehow Gregoire comes out on top (which I doubt). On the other hand, it would be nice if Rossi won and this thing was over so we can start to listen to the Ds trash Berendt and Gregoire about what a crappy campaign they ran (which they did). I'm just not sure which one would be the most fun.

When this is over, it would be interesting to start a blog topic about why people take this all so personally. It's only the governor of Washington for four years. It's not like life as we know it is going to end depending on the outcome of this election.

Posted by: Steven on November 24, 2004 11:59 AM
43. srogers - King is not the only county that was remaking questionable ballots, unfortunately. It was going on in Pierce too. I was an oberver there and over 500 ballots were remade, with only a handful going to canvassing yesterday.

A typical example of of a ballot that would be remade was where someone connected the write in arrow and then proceeded to write in the name of one of the candidates listed above. Don't ask me what these folks were thinking.

Others had really faint, squiggly marks between arrows, most were interpreted by the election officials, a few were sent to canvass.

Some folks felt compelled to connect the bar codes at the top of the ballot...these had to be remade.

This whole process was observed throughout by partisans of both sides, and the Pierce people were fair.

Under the circumstances, it was the best that could be hoped for. That's not to say I like that system, but it was what we had to work with.

Posted by: Kevin S on November 24, 2004 11:59 AM
44. King County website now says posting at 12:30pm...

Posted by: Jim King on November 24, 2004 12:21 PM
45. So basically what we have is a let's keep counting (but only in King County) until we win approach by the democrats. Unfortunately democrats get away with it when the judges are all democrats.

Posted by: David on November 24, 2004 12:26 PM
46. King County- Rossi gains 348, Gregoire gains 593- net loss to Rossi of 245. Some stolen election...

Posted by: Jim King on November 24, 2004 12:33 PM
47. I think my analysis above was fairly accurate. A 42 vote margin, only 10 off from my guess of 52.

Congrats to the King Co. GOP observers for keeping them (mostly) honest up there.

Posted by: Kevin S on November 24, 2004 01:30 PM
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